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Quit Pushing My Buttons

BRK » 26 March 2007 » In Guide, Strategy »

“I’d like to talk to you about your positions on warriors and how they pull sometime in the near future too. No scopes. Damage dealt with a pull is not necessary. Stats are nice. How far should a warrior go in gearing ranged weapons for pulls? Any comments”

You people and your questions designed to piss me off are just getting to be too much. Let me say, let me state for the record, let me be heard far and wide, let the bells ring and the banners wave,

There is never a good reason to let a warrior pull, excluding ignorance and laziness. Period.

Just a second, I’m gonna need some cocoa for this post.

…

Ooo, dark chocolate, yum.

…

{sip}

Ok, then. Let’s run down some reasons why warriors pull:

I want to build aggro as soon as I can so that my rage will increase quickly.

This situation assumes that there is a single target, say a boss in an instance, and the possibility of aggro’ing other mobs is nil, right? The warrior wants aggro, we all understand that and we all want that. We hunters want you to tank, plate-boy, so let us help you.

If there is a warrior who can generate more aggro with his ranged weapon than I can with Misdirection and a 3000 crit Aimed Shot, followed by a 1500 crit Arcane Shot, I’ll quit WoW and go play Dr. Seuss’s ‘Pet The Lorax’ for WII. Do not give me any excuse other than you’re inexperienced playing with a competent hunter. That I’ll believe, but then let me educate you. If you insist on pulling, you’ve just proved the axiom that Warriors are designed for those who hate to think.

I don’t want to have to Taunt aggro off of a Hunter.

I don’t play a warrior. I’ve tried, I was terrible, so I quit. If you, as a professional tank, are incapable of getting aggro from a mob to whom I’ve done a measly 140 damage, you too should hang up your gear and get a WII controller. But if you really and truly need even less aggro on me, then I’ll Feign Death as soon as the mob is standing on your toes; you don’t even have to move. Taunt is a spell, right? It’s on your action bar somewhere? You have the ability to press that button at a specific time?

Nobody knows how to Wait For Sunders anymore. They just start pounding DPS before the mob is with five yards of me, and if I don’t pull and at least have a chance to do my job - a job I’m d@mn good at - I’m gonna go postal on some stupid squishy and I don’t want to get banned for violating the WoW TOS.

Now this BRK understands, has witnessed, and fights against. We totally sympathize and want to help. BRK understands that soloing a protection warrior is not easy; Mr Tank, you have a friend in me. Let me aid you. We hunters want nothing more than to serve you mob after mob on a nice silver platter. It is our pleasure to save your repair bills and prevent wipes from bad pulls by using The Ultimate Zone of Perfect Safety. You think healers are the only ones who care about you?

No, baby, we care about you. We know how you feel, how you hurt. That’s right sweetie, just relax for a while and let us take pamper you. Don’t cry, it’s OK, we’re here. Those mean mages and rogues won’t come between us; we’re gonna be good to you, we promise. Priests will heal your body, but hunters will soothe your mind and ease your troubled heart.

Next time we’re against a three-mob pack, we’re gonna tell the mage to sheep the Circle, and we’re gonna Freeze Trap the Square. We’re gonna tell everybody not to DPS until told to do so. We’re gonna cast Misdirection on you, then gently tag the mob marked with a Skull every so gently with our Arcane Shot (Rank 1) to pull that group, and no other mobs or patrols, right at you. The Circle will get sheeped, the Square will be Frozen, and the Skull will run right to you. Yeah… just like that, we know how you like it right there, don’t you. Just get in defensive stance and do your thing. No running, no nasty bows, and your shield is right there, all toasty warm and ready for you.

Now, you go ahead and Sunder. We’re gonna tell the party again that nobody except the Hunter is to fire until told to do so. Misdirection still has two more shots available to give you aggro, so we’re gonna give you a nice Aimed Shot and then a big Arcane Shot. Your Sunders and our +3000 damage that’s been Misdirected onto you means that mob isn’t going anywhere; it’s all yours. We’re gonna tell the rest of the party to start DPS’ing and you just let us take it down nice and fast.

There, it’s pretty and dead, you didn’t even have to move. Feel better baby? OK, now the mob in the trap is still aggro’d from the Misdirections, so go ahead wait for the trap to break, or if you want to, go get it. Yeah, sweetie, if you want to break that ice, you just do it. Oo! So powerful! BRK is all a-quiver just watching you. There are your Sunders, so we’ll tell the gang to DPS… and that’s two down.

Now there’s the sheep. Oh my! Look at you so excited! You just ran over there and did some cool karate-chop thing with that blood-slicked sword! How wonderful! Sunders, DPS… and down it goes. Look at that smile on your face! Oh, sweetie, I know, don’t cry; it’s beautiful when crowd control, aggro control, and Focused Fire DPS work together… here’s a tissue, just sit for a few minutes, BRK has a conclusion to write, ok?

Shh… ok, keep quiet, our tank is resting, so let’s discuss the rest of the question. It is BRK’s opinion that a warrior should have a ranged weapon for stats, just like a hunter should have a melee weapon for stats. If a warrior wants to waste money on a scope, BRK isn’t going to complain, but you really don’t need it.

Let Hunters Pull. Don’t make tanks have to try to pull a single mob from a pack and have to live with the guilt of wiping the party because they have zero aggro-mitigation skills. Don’t make them run into a room and try to fire when a hunter has practically double their range and can attack from the safety of a doorway. Give your tanks all the aggro they could possible want by using Misdirection.

And please, everybody, don’t attack the mob before the tank has not only established, but solidified aggro. Just because they wear plate doesn’t mean they don’t have a delicate constitution and a frail disposition.

Tanks are people too, you know.

Guide, Strategy | March 26, 2007

Comments

16 Responses to “Quit Pushing My Buttons”

  1. Anonymous on March 26th, 2007 9:02 pm

    hurray for meat sheilds.

    poly is normally a 3 second cast, so if timed just right u can poly with out your mob even moving.though most of the time u want he mob away from any pats. tell your mage where u want him and ill put him right there.
    glit.

  2. Anonymous on March 26th, 2007 9:14 pm

    That was your best-ever post. And timely. I just joined a new guild and when I offered to pull in a 5-man, the tank said, “I never let hunters pull”. Doh! Why didn’t I ask about that before joining?

    tm

    P.S. Yesterday I respec’d to BM (MM for the past year) and so far I just freaking love it! My combined damage is better and we require a lot less regen time now.

  3. Excaliber1 on March 26th, 2007 9:54 pm

    I let a warrior pull during the Blood Furnace run o_o

    Although “I” had to give the ok in case there were pats then I would pull.

    But so far (even in PUG’S) Ive never wiped with a warrior pulling. must be my luck or something, and I do pull sometimes, but if the warrior insists on pulling and he does his job then Im ok with it. If he wipes on first pull, Ill step in and say “ok, now let daddy do the talking”

    I know wipes=armor repairs etc. But seems to me i can make most of the money back i lost from repairs. (as for the moments Ive only wiped once during a Ramparts run; I must be lucky LOL)

  4. Kinless on March 27th, 2007 12:08 pm

    Misdirection is level 70 ability if I’m not mistaken.

    I’m not level 70.

    Pre-70, your first reason for a warrior not to pull is negated. I don’t have Misdirection to load him up with Aggro. Wish I did, but I’m not 70.

    Second way, with Feign death, is clear. I’ve had that ability for a while now. And yeah, the Warrior needs to do his job too and be ready to taunt.

    Your third thing. I also play a Warrior. Yep, you got it. It’s like I have to beg them to let me just do my job. I play with Gonzo’s. They deserve to die. Don’t blame me when you suicide through stupidity.

    But on the third thing, again, you’re using Misdirection. We aren’t all 70.

    So you’re last bit of advice, “And please, everybody, don’t attack the mob before the tank has not only established, but solidified aggro.” remains the most applicable, from 1-69.

    So, your advice, if I’ve got it right, correct me if I don’t, to the pre-70 Hunter is to pull with a wimpy shot and then feign death.

    And that’s better than letting the Warrior get the initial aggro by pulling himself.

    Better because it’s a pull that can be controlled or cancelled via feigning death when you get a bad pull. Warrior has to live, or die, with bad pulls. A Hunter can shrug off most mistakes.

  5. Larnen on March 27th, 2007 2:55 pm

    I always pull as a 67 BM hunter - my feral druid tank buddy likes to use faerie fire in very rare occasions (such as bosses who want want to move into a new position), but 99.9% of the time the hunter pulls using rank 1 arcane shot.

    If we’re happy leaving a mob in position (always a non caster), then our Rogue will sap (you DO have improved sap right?), I’ll pull the rest into position, dropping one into a trap, the mage sheeps and the tank grabs the skull tagged dps target. Since I only used rank 1 arcane shot this is as easy as pie.

    If one is unsappable or we have 5+, Sable my erstwhile sabre toothed killer kitty will merrily OT one to give the tank time to collect it. She may not tank bosses but for trash she can chew on them all day if need be.

    We then rattle them down - as the non-CC’ed ones go down its time for the tank to pick up the trapped one. Then I collect the sapped one to draw them into the fight and finally the mage stops sheeping.

    BANG - 5 dead mobs. I can’t even remember the last wipe on a non-boss.

    For top tips I’m totally in agreement with BRK:

    1) Let the hunter pull. Do it. Yes we know you can pull too, but we are specialised at it. Longest range. Smallest aggro radius. Makes traps easier. And CRITICALLY if it goes wrong we can save everyones lives with FD.

    2) Use those raid icons. Seriously. If you get jumped and there is no time then fair enough, but for planned pulls it makes a HUGE difference.

    3) Hit any rogues or mages with a large hammer if their opening attack is some horrible crit-prone monstrosity. Ambush is great, but if the monster turns on you, you will be taking more damage due to reduced mitigation than you did with your funky special.

    That’ll do for now :)

    For the record, we use:
    Yellow Star = Sap
    Cyan Crescent = Sheep
    Blue Square = Frost Trap
    Skull = DPS target

    Which normally does the job :)

    Larnen

  6. Thriller on March 27th, 2007 3:16 pm

    I play a tank, and this summarizes my PUG frustrations pretty well - just let me hit the guy a few times before unleashing with the crazy DPS goodness and pulling all aggro off me. I don’t really like to pull as a tank and when playing with a qualified hunter am always more than happy to relegate that particular duty (since when I played hunter, I always tried to insist on pulling, increased range being the least reason for it).

    To summarize - yes, I agree.

  7. Anonymous on March 27th, 2007 6:17 pm

    The paladin 41 point talent in the prot tree is specifically made to pull.

    Hunters are not required to get through an instance. They are not required to make an instance run smooth and fast.

    Ultimately, hunters only need to pull if the party wants to make the hunter feel special. With the abilities shown by 99% of the hunter population, you’re better off never having the hunter pull. Sad but true.

  8. Yet Another NE on March 27th, 2007 7:28 pm

    BRK!

    I felt like I was reading a
    http://www.thottbot.com/i29571

    Now I’m all hot-n-bothered!

    *fans self*

  9. Damh on March 27th, 2007 7:47 pm

    Mr. Anonymous Paladin get -5 BRK Cool Points for hiding behind a veil of mystery.

    Disagree with BRK? Go ahead. Think we’re silly, ignorant, whacked in the noggin? Cool. Think hunters are useless and a waste of WoW programming? Cheers.

    But if you have an opinion, bring it hard or don’t bring it. Step into the light and give us a name so we can measure your comment and see if it has any weight behind it.

    Now before I make a comment on the Paladin Protection 41-Point Talent, would somebody please confirm that this person is referring to Avenger’s Shield?

    He can’t be, can he? I’m reading that wrong.

    (P.S. YANE, BRK reads lots of romance novels and has written a small one too. Sometimes, we get our gendres swapped. Sorry for the cold shower.)

  10. Taita on March 28th, 2007 4:55 pm

    Great site Damh, lots of good info here. To all pre-70 hunters…. there is something called distracting shot. You know, that shot that never makes it onto your toolbar whose use still mystifies you. This shot causes no damage, but adds threat to the target (up to 600 I think). Why would you use a shot that causes no damage? Because it’s a great aggro delivery system when used in conjuction with a non-lazy tank. The way it works to solidify aggro is the following:

    1) Hunter hits mob to be tanked with distracting shot.
    2) Tank taunts target off mob
    3) Hunter feigns death

    When the tank taunts, his threat is now equal to that caused by the distracting shot. A couple of shots and some sunders will now grab the mobs attention. Feign will then wipe the hunter aggro. You are now left with a tank with very firm aggro.

    On the off chance the taunt is resisted, the hunter just feigns and the tank is left to build aggro from scratch. If your feign is resisted, then just stand still and take a few hits like a man and keep hitting Disengage to lower your threat (another hunter ability that never seems to make it onto a cast bar) while the tank continues to beat on the target. Why should a hunter pull? The short answer is that a hunter has the best aggro management abilities in the game.

    btw, this method works at 70 too. I generally use it when my misdirect is on cooldown.

  11. Damh on March 28th, 2007 6:12 pm

    OMG Distracting Shot deserves its own post. Thank you, Taita!

  12. taudok on March 28th, 2007 6:40 pm

    I have to agree with you Taita, Distracting Shot & Disengage, never made it to my toolbars until late 40s early 50s. I didn’t know what they were and didn’t take the time to buy the upgrades (since I figured that if i never used them why waste the $ right). Well then I started experimenting with different builds [this is when I started reading BRK and went BM]. Now they are embedded in my toolbar and they never leave.

    BTW, reason #006 for being a Dwarven Hunter: Stoneskin = a Rogue’s worst enemy and a Dwarf’s best friend in PvP. Poison Shmoison, one quick click and though I may be slowed your poisons have vanished *POOF*

  13. Anonymous on August 19th, 2007 1:45 pm

    I am a warrior and actually enjoyed your post. I am not opposed to pulling a mob and tanking it, but a good hunter really does make one helluva difference. As a tank you play a game every time you bring a hunter into your group- ‘Is he a hunter or a huntard‘ and trust me far too enough they are huntards who want to play ‘pull the aggro from the tank’. On the other hand, I have rolled with some prot spec warriors (which I am also) and…ummmm…..ya…..some tanks need to hang up their gear.

    Awesome post and even tanks agree!

    P.S. A hunter using Misdirection is a friend indeed

  14. Daddy Gamer on September 10th, 2007 1:57 pm

    Nice post BRK. I really liked the last part. Especially as a tank myself.

    For all of u saying that letting tanks pull before hunter turn 70 and use misdirect (or they FD to escape aggro) has clearly missed the Taunt button!

    If u have a group of good range dps. Let em have at it at the skull. Especially w a mage that slows the mob. When it reaches you all dps stops and with a simple click on taunt transfer all that sweet pyro/aimed shot/shadow bolt nastyness to your own warm comforting aggro.
    One click may give you a 15k in aggro. Yes one click… It’s called taunt.

    And to say thanks to all the dps happy crowds out there - let the guys have the next skull all for them selves! Let em max dot it, arcane shot it, frost bolt it and even a wee bit of concussion shot it so the dps crowd dont get pounded into goo. If they are good - they can kill it before arriving you know!

    And you can take on mob 2 and 3 all by your self. No nasty hunters stealing your precious aggro. :)

  15. Doogie on October 1st, 2007 8:21 pm

    I would like to say a couple of things to the post and thread:

    1) Just as our weak-assed ranged weapons don’t generate much threat/damage and therefore that doesn’t qualify as an argument, neither does “I can’t pull off you for trap.”
    2) Some Hunters have good timing and reflexes; some are retards. Some Warriors have good timing and reflexes; some are retards. People have got to play to their strengths.
    3) When I tank, I like to have a degree of control over the when of the pull. Just a personal preference thing; if the Hunter wants to pull, that’s cool, but none of our Hunters ever offer to pull, other than the Arcane mobs before Curator.
    4) Related to this, doesn’t MD have a two-minute cooldown? Yes, I know, Taunt/Thunderclap, and yes, I know, if a mob runs off after a dumbass Mage who opens with Pyroblast, that Mage deserves to get his head added to Curator’s menagerie. That being said, still kind of a pain in the ass.
    5) What’s your problem with Avenger’s Shield? You never did get into that. Is it just that it’s harder to pull off the Pally? Is it the fact that you occasionally don’t know where it’s going to go? I dunno, our Pally tanks (and we have a bunch) have enough practice with it, that it’s really not a problem.

    Anyway, just a few comments from the peanut gallery.

  16. Raath on November 1st, 2007 5:10 pm

    Long time Hunter, Short time reader.
    BIG FANATIC of your blog.

    For the longest time, I played my hunter and grew very adept at my role. Four years of pulling as a Ranger for our guild in Everquest. I was class leader and one of the “Veterans” on our server. When WoW came out, I spent ages pulling in Molten Core for 40, then BWL, then AQ40, then Naxx. Reliable, fast, and deadly efficient splits and long hauls.

    At the Start of BC, we had a guild with 5 hunters and only 2 Karazan teams. Hunters do the math here. Five man Heroic clicks formed and the top 4 became teams Alpha and Beta. The others that didn’t get purple gear and badges of Justice… were soon left out in the cold. The Karazan squads progressed with our MT/MH combinations and Offtank/OffHealer combinations…..the other 20 people soon got grumpy. Unemployment does that.

    No tanks and healers were left to group with. We tried 5 man instances with funky class combinations and bad results. ( Run with 3 locks and 2 hunters or 4 druids and a pally?) Just a mess for guild cohesion and happy 40 raid member guild had a lot of people leave for greener pastures.

    I took up tanking, because we couldn’t find one for any that weren’t comitted to the “I’m a DPS Fury Tank” role. My alt was around 60 anyway. I found out I was pretty good at it.

    Months pass, and soon I was level 70 and MT for the new guild’s Karazan T2.

    What to do with hunters that DON”T support their local tank??

    We have hunters on our Raid squads, but getting them to pull is like pulling teeth.

    They know I can pull, so they just let me. LAZY hunters.

    Only on the Curator do they step up.

    In the void without aggressive hunters… there’s a vacum.

    BRK, you up for a server-move? You just can’t give this tank too much aggro. As a tank, I WELCOME that misdirect. As a tank, I encourage Feigning mobs at my feet on a pull. If I overpull, I WANT an ice trap on the side to yank a mob away. Put the trap in front of me. I can tab around and hit the 2nd creature that runs at us.

    Scorpoid sting reduces Melee boss DPS on me. Nobody uses it. Cast that Mis-direct DURING a 5 minute fight. The mana may be rough, but 3000 bonus aggro keeps the locks happily dotting along. Think OUTSIDE the box. Serpent contributes to DPS, but a bonus ice trap during Moroes >>> less stress on the healers to quickly re-shackle.

    Most of the hunters in my guild are MM types that drop DPS where they’re told. Respectable chaps, but I’m used to being a hunter on the leading edge. Not the following one. It’s not just the guildies I’m asking to be more aggressive. They’re the best of the lot.

    It’s the PUG Hunters that really get my goat. Most are afraid to use a pet to offtank anything. Honestly, it’s a rare priest that heals a pet. I understand that. If I’m tanking an elite, 1 Elite is Sheeped/Sapped, 1 Elite is Ice Trapped, and 1 elite is Offtanked by “Whiskers the kitty”… I expect BOTH the priest and hunter to be healing the pet thru the fight. Everyone else focus-fire on the Main target.

    Hunters gimme some love here. Why aren’t you guys dropping Snake traps on lone caster mobs or caster bosses? That snake slow-poison PWNS. USE those Frost traps with Mage AOEs or Multi tank pulls. You don’t have to be SV to use traps. I’ll take a 20 second ICE vs Nothing. Some stand shell-shocked to see me NOT run around breaking shackle or thunder clapping the world. Drop a trap and distract. JUST because I can tank 4 elites at once doesn’t mean I want to. It eats too much healer mana and too much can go wrong. Standing there with your pet on passive going pew-pew thru an entire fight… is annoying.

    Having your pet growl before my sunders on an instance boss also makes baby Jesus cry. Pull your trap with Arcane 1 not Aimed Shot. If your trap gets resisted, I only have 100 threat to beat, not 3000. If things go wonky and you draw melee aggro….don’t run away from me. Run TO me. I’m taunting, sundering, and shouting for attention. Please don’t run to the priest and feign.

    You wanna try to re-trap later, fine. Just don’t kite around screaming for help 70 yards from the MT. Feign, Distract (to me), and Fire an Arcane shot 6 at the mob. Barring that, you can Wing clip, Scatter shot, or just stand there. I’ll rescue you. Keep Ranged DPS on SKULL.

    Since I’ve stopped playing my hunter… I’ve grown acutely aware of their shortcomings. I don’t want to leave my Tank because I’m GOOD at my job. We did our first 5 boss night in Karazan ( Attunemen thru Curator in 3.5 hours ). I know how sensitive DPS types are to hearing about their job from a Tank.

    How do I encourage them to be more hunter-ish without sounding like a jealous know-it-all ?