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Here we have the results of the BRK-Favorite Beastmaster build. The basic stats to remember are:
Now we have a traditional Marksman Raiding build. BRK even remembered to train and buff ourselves with TrueShot Aura Rank 4 before he got the stats:
BRK loves the survivalist tree for its utility and ability to really make a hunter a solid crowd-control class. Here are the pertinent stats:
And ZOMG we haven’t forgotten about pets!
OK gang, let’s bring out the red carpets and open the champagne, here’s the Big Total.
Will a competent Marksman outdamage a bad Beastmaster? Yes.
Email icon provided by Nexodyne.
Wow Damh you read my mind! Recently I’ve been wishing that there was a tool I could use to compare talent builds with my current gear and pet without having to respec to do so. I did think about building a spreadsheet… but I’m lazy
So I really appreciate the effort gone to in order to present this information for all of us (yes I do think you are nuts) as well as the big spend up. I’m leaning more and more towards respeccing back in favour of BM again.
Wow…I mean…wow…
I have a good friend who swears by MM. I’ll have to show him this and laugh in his face.
A good way to spend 150g
Congrats on the “hole-in-your-pocket” syndrome Damh. What’s a better way to throw out 150g than to respec 3 times? I mean when you’ve got it, spend it, right? Anyhow, thanks again for another of your vastly knowledgeable posts. Even though I know Mr. Anonymous MM will come and cast his flawed opinion here, I figured I’d at least stop in before I leave to say good job and keep it up while i’m gone these next two weeks
A few things:
1) Saying “let them come and say it’s flawed” doesn’t make it not so.
2) It’s not flawed… it’s incomplete and irrelevant.
How can you post Auto Shot only numbers and then, with a straight face, state the following:
“Will a competent Marksman outdamage a bad Beastmaster? Yes.
Will specific +RAP and +Crit gear perhaps bump the Marksman over the Beastmaster? Maybe.”
This misleading and disingenuous. Your test has absolutely no reflection or relevance on either a BM or an MM hunter. Do you only use Auto Shot? Do you know any other hunters that only use Auto Shot?
No. So what you’ve done in your post is essentially duplicated what it says right on your character sheet. BM has higher paper doll while DPS.. it’s printed right there. Grats Damh, you just wasted 150g.
I’m all for testing and theory, believe me. I believe that, with pet included, BM will out DPS MM with ease. But I cannot respect a pure Auto Shot only comparison followed by a proclamation about the quality and damage potential of “competent” players… none of which would EVER use only Auto Shots.
You can try to dismiss this is twisting, lunatic, pedantic, ranting, babbling, or anything else. But you’re smart enough to know that it’s not.
Prove me wrong. Counter my point. Explain how your posted data applies to any competent Hunter in any situation they might encounter in the game. (aside from a 1000 second boss fight while OOM)
>> Explain how your posted data applies to any competent Hunter in any situation they might encounter in the game. (Aside from a 1000 second boss fight while OOM)
If we’re going to attempt to analyse damage output rationally, it becomes paramount to follow the basic tenets of scientific research and do what we were taught in basic science class: establish a “control” baseline. Such a baseline *cannot* be established by taking into account shot rotation and other *variables* because they’re exactly that… variables!
These figures give a good baseline for comparisons. I think the point Damh is trying to make at the end is, assuming there are several shot rotations that provide MM with significantly more DPS than its own paper doll value - and of course there are - it’s also reasonable to assume that there are shot rotations for BM which would provide that tree with more DPS than its paper doll value too. Given that MM starts out lower than BM at the *baseline* that’s been established, BM’s DPS is *likely* to be higher, when given say equally competent MM and BM players with decent gear, using optimal rotations for their spec.
Gonna say it One More Time:
None of this data is supposed to be used to apply to ANY in-game situation. We never said it did, it never will, it’s not supposed to. No hunter fires auto shot only or engages in 1000-second, uninterrupted fights.
This is a statistical analysis of the the talents and how they affect paperdoll damage. That. Is. It.
However, this data does prove three very important Hunter Facts:
1) There is no justification saying that Marksman is the “DPS Build” for hunters when the data clearly shows otherwise.
2) The marksman build gives 25% more RAP, the beastmaster build gives 20% increased attack speed. The increase in speed has a bigger effect on the amount of damage, just as BRK predicted.
3) A BM pet can do approximately 20% more damage - without calculating crits, if you noticed - than a MM, and 40% more damage than a SV pet.
As for “competency”, here’s what BRK means:
Hunter A and Hunter B are Bad Hunters. Hunter A is a BM, Hunter B is a MM. They use autoshot only. Who is going to do more damage over time? Hunter A will. Why? Because the BM tree has an inherent advantage in dps.
Hunter A is still a bad Hunter, but Hunter B starts reading BRK and becomes a good hunter. He uses all his shots and builds a shot-rotation. Who will do more damage over time? Hunter B will. Why? Because Hunter B’s skill will overcome the BM inherent advantage in dps.
Hunter A get’s PO’d and starts reading BRK too. Now, they are both good hunters. Who will do more damage over time? Hunter A will. Why? Because the BM tree has an inherent advantage in dps.
And that sums up BRK’s Point once and for all.
Finally - we love discussion and intelligent disagreements. +5 BRK Cool Points to Drey. Thank you for spending your time crafting your response to the post; we all appreciate it.
But remember, in a 1000-second boss fight with auto shot only, you wouldn’t go OOM; you would only be using auto shot.
Hey wowpeon - if you have an engineering, computer science, or mathematics degree and are in the market for work in the Space industry… I’m not saying I have anything for you now, but I know of a possible opening in a department in my division.
I have a bad habit of stating the obvious, I know.
I’ll start off with saying I’ve never played a hunter, never had a hunter (I tend to like my pets demonic, and usually sacrificed).
Be that as it may…
I think maybe the point is increased attack speed doesnt help special shots like an increase in RAP.
So marksmen, by their nature, have a better benefit when using specials. I would think it would be quite a bit of benefit, following the standard “big, slow, weapons” to maximize specials..
Of course, as I mentioned, I’m not a hunter type so maybe my thinking is flawed somewhere. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?
Ah, double post, sorry..
I forgot to mention that the marksmen bonus on special shots would be better for the *majority* of shot rotations.
The additional pet damage though, is quite significant.
what it all comes down to is somewhere between the panties any the buck 50 you left in your pants it all comes out in the wash and if you like MM play MM if you like BM play BM its all about having fun….
this info is nice to have for the people that are on the fence or closet BM playing a MM =P cus you dont know all the facts…
for me it is like pets i try them all i try all the specs and i have found that i like BM and right now my pet is a warp hunter i started using him instead of Damh’s favorite pet a bear =P
Adrus
Repost for you, Enjoy.
Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix:
157 - 292 Damage Speed 2.90
(77.4 damage per second)
BM 41/20/0 - Focused Fire, Serpent’s Swiftness, Ferocious Inspiration, Mortal Shots, Lethal Shots, Efficiency.
1800 RAP
20% Crit
Average shot damages @ 39% mitigation:
Auto Shot: 948
Steady Shot: 962
Multi-Shot: 1203
Arcane Shot: 718
MM 7/43/11 Focused Fire, Mortal Shots, Lethal Shots, Efficiency, Barrage, Imp. Barrage, Ranged Weapon Specialization, True Shot Aura, Master Marksman, Humanoid Slaying.
2216 RAP (this is (1800 + 125TSA + 90CA) * 1.1MM)
20% Crit
Average shot damages @ 39% mitigation:
Auto Shot: 1121
Steady Shot: 1131
Multi-Shot: 1747
Arcane Shot: 845
Those are real values. They match up exactly with what happens in game.
Please see: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=203610423&pageNo=2 if you suspect otherwise.
Rotation: Auto, Steady
BM 554 DPS @ 47 MPS
MM 544 DPS @ 39 MPS
BM wins, though the mana cost per second is higher. This is Serpent’s Swiftness at work.
Rotation: Auto, Steady, Arcane(Rank 9), Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady
BM 597 DPS @ 71 MPS
MM 644 DPS @ 65 MPS
MM wins with Arcane. You might think this rotation is unfavorable since it delays the Auto Shot for BM, but you’d be wrong:
Rotation: Auto, Arcane(Rank 9), Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady
BM 575 DPS @ 64 MPS
MM 565 DPS @ 53 MPS
BM did better with the slight clipping of the previous rotation, though at a higher mana cost.
If you take the ideal rotation using only Auto, Arcane, Steady, and using the same mana per second:
MM 644 DPS @ 65 MPS
BM 575 DPS @ 64 MPS
MM wins, hands down.
How about we look at what MM can do using the same mana as the BM Auto, Steady rotation.
Rotation: Auto, Steady, Arcane(Rank 4), Auto, Steady, Auto, Steady
MM 606 DPS @ 47 MPS
For the same mana per second, MM wins simply by weaving in Arcane Shot(Rank 4).
Now add in pet damage and I suspect at this point BM will pull ahead, but what Eej said holds true. Also bear in mind the BM numbers above reflect having FI 100% of the time.
If you still don’t believe this, or if you want to dismiss it as pure theory crafting, I give you this challenge:
1) Get SW-Stats.
2) Note your RAP, talents and Crit %.
3) Make a rotation.
4) Go to Dr. Boom, and run your rotation until OOM.
5) Using the “Skills” info in SW-Stats, give me your average shot damages.
I will give you my sheet and tell you where to plug in the numbers. Over multiple tests the rotation sim has proven to be accurate to within +/-2 DPS. (and I would love to further tune it if it’s inaccurate for you)
Do this and you’ll see that, without factoring pet damage, MM will put out more sustained DPS than BM.
Dear Elune No…
Dr Boom made it onto a BRK discussion. We hoped he never would.
BRK readers, very few subjects cause more anger, feuds, and descents into name-calling than this guy.
So OK, BRK will write a post on him. But don’t say we didn’t warn you. Stand by for “No he didn’t/yes he did” type-arguments.
Just remember, we’ll turn this car RIGHT AROUND if y’all don’t behave.
“Do this and you’ll see that, without factoring pet damage, MM will put out more sustained DPS than BM.”
I should hope so! Considering that a BM pet vastly out-damages a MM pet, there has to be some benefit, under some circumstance, for speccing MM. Sustained ranged DPS is what MM is supposed to do best. Dahm’s argument across these many posts, as I understand it, has been that BM overall, in general, has the potential to do higher *total* damage. And so far, no one has been able to show that this is not true.
The one thing that you all fail to bring into comparison is this: Hunter’s are no longer a main DPS class. In equovilant gear we WILL be out DPS’d by rogues, mages, and locks. The reason we are brought to instances (heroics) and raids is because of our in commbat CC.
The BM spec has no points in survival, specifically any in prolonged trapping and trap resistance(I forget actual names). If you run a heroic without having in points in trap resistance your traps are pointless and will break 8/10 times (Yes… I know you all want numbers, but this is self tested and I have no other verifiable stats). Trapping is extremely important in KZ. You can be the king of DPS, but if you aren’t trapping in instances and raids than the viability of a hunter goes way down and they might as well find a lock to replace you.
Krake (Maelstrom)
Did not see date on this… Ignore post as you have already stated that you are going to try survival again.
hey.
yeah, im not so sure ur gonna be able to test this so much just using numbers.
if you look in the talent trees MM has alot of stuff in it like reducing the CD on arcane shot, reducing mana consumption, etc, which boosts dps in other ways.
A better test would be to use damage meters and a timer, and spam the standard moves.
for exampls do the same raid twice, using a section of time from the middle of the raid, where the MM keeps up rapid fire every cd, spamming arcane, etc.
the work out dps from dividing dmg by the time it was over.
ignoring the fact that I don’t like the 0/41/20 build and use a 20/41/0 build instead… and assuming everything shown here is the gold standard by which we should base our build decision… who WOULDN’t give up 2% DPS for trueshot aura and silencing shot? I would, gladly…
this is a very interesting analysis, and I commend you for it… but I’m just not sold… I was BM specc’d to 60 and MM spec’d from 60-70 and have NEVER thought I made a wrong choice… in solo, yes, BM was KING… in groups and raids… MM has been the winner for me…
“…U’cha or her mate (a rare spawn)< -- only problem with this guy is that he's white not red."
I once trained that white gorilla and gave him the same name of my arch rival in the BG’s. Being as he was part of am around the clock premie and I was a PuG Bg’er, it was funny to see his entire guild wipe the ground with me, I definantly made my point
One thing I’d like to add to this discussion: being a die hard BM hunter I can say with confidence that there are times in combat where you can not, or rather should not, send in your pet right away; sometimes not at all. This would bring MM a little closer to balance with BM dmg over time since the BM loses mroe DPS w/out the pet than MM.
But let’s all be truthful to ourselves here for a second… who in their right mind would pass at the chance to see your Pink Plainstrider named ‘Cupcake’ solo a mage in some BG, while you’re busy chain trapping some warrior? C’mon… be honest.
Big Red anything is fun, but waiting for that magical Crit Aimed shot as MM is like waiting for a homerun in baseball: some ppl like the anticipation, some do not. With BM you have control over when you rage and therefore you have control over when it’s best for the heavy hitter to make an appearence.
Thanks for listening,
~Chills MB troll hunter, SwC.
Pet= Sian-Rotam
I think something that is forgotten here is the reason I went MM in the first place… to make the entire group better.
yes, *my* total DPS(including pet) DID go down, solo and in groups when I abandoned BM spec for MM… I’ll grant you that every day of the week and twice on sunday. that seems to be the biggest argument, but I concede that. that is what makes BM so great in a soloing what would normally be a 2-3 man group quest…
however in an instance, you have more to think about than the DPS meter… with a 20/41/0 build, the pet can still off-tank any mob to give the warrior more time and keep someone off the squishies, you can still pump out a lot of ranged DPS, EVEN going full-bore on boss fights without running out of mana(aspect of the viper) AND your entire group gets a DPS boost with trueshot…
now, eventhough a MM specced hunter doesn’t put out as much DPS solo… however, if 3-4 other people around them get an extra 125AP, plus all melee classes get the 110AP bonus from hunter’s mark… the entire GROUP’s DPS is increased! say only 3 of the group(besides you, the hunter) care about this buff… that’s and extra 375 AP the group is using to down mobs from trueshot alone! ask ANY attacking class if they’d like an extra 375 AP, and see what they say… and that’s not mentioning silencing shot… pulling a caster into a trap without it is almost impossible, and interrupting a healer in battle is irreplacable…
oh, and consider a 0/41/20 hunter in a group… with an ice trap lasting 30% longer and all other traps having a chance to immobilize, doesn’t this once again make the GROUP better suited to survive and escape the instance without a wipe?
your big on Math here… I like that! so lets use the stats from one of your other articles:
http://bigredkitty.blogspot.com/2007/04/brk-blows-150g-for-you.html
a BM hunter generates 308DPS(paperdoll)
a MM specc’d generates 302…
for the sake of comparison: both are in a group with 3 other DPS dealers doing their job… putting out 300DPS paperdoll before they join the group…
knowing that 14 AP gives a damage bonus equal to 1 DPS…
125 AP =~9DPS
the BM group gets:
308 + 3*(300)=1208DPS
the MM group gets:
302 + 3*(300+9)=1229 DPS
again, I love the site! but give the MMs some love… you know you’d love and extra 125 AP in your group.
I don’t know enough to contradict anyone here, and I’m not going to try - but my spec is 4-40-17.
The reasons are as follows, but apparently my reasoning is flawed..
The 4 - an extra 4% HP doesn’t go amiss, I’m sticky so it helps.
The 17 - I want longer ice traps and I want the extra 10% HP (same reason as above - apparently I’m an aggro-junkie hunter, perhaps some macros will help lol).
The 40 is obvious, it gives me extra agility and int., true shot aura and lots of AP/ranged damage bonuses.
My DPS though is a pitiful 274.
I want your 320 - but I have a feeling your better equipment is a big part of the reason. I have no tier 4/5 gear and only blue weapons.
I used to swear by BM - for levelling, and MM - for raiding.
Looks like I have some re-thinking to do. thx
One thing to take into account in a raid setting. MM vs BM. A lot of raid bosses are rather melee unfriendly. You may have to run your pet out, or heal him up, causing lost dps, and or mana. Not to mention you’re taking your attention away from your shot rotation, and onto your pet, also lowering your dps. With an MM build your pets dps is negligable, so you don’t have to worry about it as much, and this allows you to focus on your shot rotation.
(I don’t use a macro for my shot rotation though, so take what I say with a grain of salt)
I have a question… am I the only hunter in the world who uses multishot in their shot rotation? Even on long boss fights mana isn’t that big of a problem if you use aspect of the viper and have mana pots and fel mana pots. For this reason I believe MM easily out DPSes BM in raids. Also pets die to easy in raids.
Glaedr
Muradin
I too use Multi shot in my rotation. I am a 10/47/4 MM(if you look at my armory you will laugh I was playing around in shattrath last night and have half my gear on) and have no problem with being one of the main DPS in my group. I could just be spamming Auto, Multi, steady and occasionally with my Expose Weakness buff from the 4 piece Beast Lord set I can unfortunately pull aggro my way.
I am not saying this to brag but there is also a BM Hunter in my group that does have her pet attack as well as mine (hence the 4 piece bonus) and I still out DPS her and we are in compariable gear. I did lean a little more towards the RAP side, because I wanted to do more base damage than say burst with +crit.
But I did really like your comparison of the 3 trees. It was informative but it just still nags me that as baseline MM did not top the DPS chart. Maybe I am just looking at it wrong or something.
Fathgar & Fenrir
Hi. I’m not all that learned in the ways of the hunter. However, from what i have heard, in order to deal effective dps with a survival spec, you need at least 800 agi unbuffed, and somewhere around 30% crit. This gives you very good mana-efficiency thanks to Thrill of the Hunt as well as a nice group buff in the form of expose weakness. Sorry i don’t have the math, dis-regard this post if nessecary
Well… just cause Survival isn’t getting any love…
Don’t forget that Expose Weakness scales more with gear than Trueshot. They’re even at 500 AGI, which is not unreasonable for a well geared hunter.
Personally (Dakitamba, Anetheron) I’m not quite that well geared, but getting there. A 25% crit rate is easily enough to keep EW up all the time. Of course, drawback to EW is that it is on the target, not the raid member, but wouldn’t you usually prefer the +DPS on the main target over some extra DPS for the offtank?
I know that when all my procs go off(which is not that uncommon at all) if I use rapid fire I have barely over 1sec fire time with 40%+ crit(with raid buffs) and will consistently crit 4 or 5 times with auto shot for around 1K. Only problem with that is pulling aggro when I open with 3 crits in a row.
I can probably be out DPS’d by a good MM or BM spec, but not by much. Add to that 26 second traps with a 24 second cooldown, and I feel like useful CC (all it takes is couple of seconds for anything Kara+ to take you out), and still good DPS in boss fights.
I’m happy with my Surv spec(except for a minor adjustment to get TotH back), although I’m certainly not saying that other Hunters deciding other specs are right for them are wrong. Unless they’re trying to pretend they can CC in a raid…
You _may_ be able to chain trap without surv spec, as long as you have enough space and little enough time(and make sure everyone else holds 30 seconds for your cooldown before pulling), but you _will_ get a resist, or a mob who decides the caster you left him next to is tastier than the hunter across the room. Chain trapping with SV is so much easier and less space consuming. Trap, walk two steps(to avoid a 4K whack upside the head in a raid), when trapped, drop another trap, walk two more steps in the same direction. When trapped, walk 4 steps back across the trap, in case of resist readiness, take the 4K whack, and drop again.
Thanks for the comparison BRK.
My current spec is 41/20/0 BM an our guild is working through SSC & The Eye.
Our guild has 4 raiding hunters - I’m BM, 1 in Surv and the other 2 Marksman.
And I agree with an earlier post that TSA ups the dps of physical dps classes. But never overlook the power of FI. Its a 3% Increase to ALL damage. In the right group this can be a hell of a lot - which is why I don’t get put into the same party as Rogues, Feral Druids or DPS Tin cans anymore. I get the DPS casters, including a shadow priest so mana is rarely a problem.
Also to the person who said Expose Weakness is a good party buff, its actually a raid buff!
–Wisp
I would just like to know what those stats look like when there is no armor involved. I dont know how much you feel like blowing cash, but a three spec comparison of base stats with no armor or any other boost would be most beneficial as to what build does what. Just my 2¢.
BM is a better raiding spec than MM, that’s why hardcore guild dont have MM if not for PVP stuff.
wanna some practical theorycrafting? play with this http://www.havoc-guild.us/Cheeky/Hunter_DPS_Calc.xls
wanna see something “less theory more practice”?
check this out http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=idxhjc3z33vjo
150g well spent! Thanks for the comparison!
I have always been for BM. I love the pet dps. MM vs. BM. Somewhat depends on what you prefer spending your time doing. PvP or Raids? A hunter friend of mine go back and forth between raids and pvp. The more I practice at pvp, the more range I get between his overall damage and mine. He couldn’t understand why, heh. I wanted to test MM vs. BM in a duel, he agreed. I admit dieing a few time in the beginning, after i changed a few things around, he now can not beat me. His pet is baically useless against me, freeze trap done. (BTW,we both have cats) My cat on the other hand… hmmm my big point here. WHY HAVE NONE OF YOU MENTIONED BEASTIAL WRATH, BEAST WITHIN AND INTIMADATION! YARG ALL YOU MM TALKING BOUT SILINCING SHOT, SCATTER SHOT AND ALL THAT.. PPFFFT. INtimidation, personally I think is better then scatter shot.. no range disadvantage. Although longer cool down, doesn’t really bother me. Anyways BACK TO BEAST WITHIN/WRATH. None of you have mentioned… the 50% increase in pet dps.. plus 30% increased attack speed. On top of all that, he’s unstoppable unless he is killed, scattershot, freeze trap. All that he is immune to. So while my friends pet is frozen, usless. My pet is dealing, from what I remember, around 308 dps per second, and 127.0ish attack speed. Yes, my cat is intense ^^. So after he dashes in, beastial wrath(immune to the freeze trap) intimidate, the starts dealing the ridiculous dps… I start dealing my own, with the 10% damage increase… oh and the mana reduction… does nothing for duels, but still. Pretty sure the duel is over in less then 8 seconds… leaving my poor MM hunter friend at a loss… with no more bandages XD as well as confused and frazzled. XD
Always was BM from the begining… couldn’t get enough of the kitty at my side. All through my leveling… MM bragging about dps… well looky now I out dps many MM hunters. NOw at 70, where it counts… Maybe they’re just not very skilled, I dunno. I’m not saying I am that skilled… I have yet to get rid of my few greens I have left… My MM friend has arena peices.. and MUCH better gear then I do…
As for instances… My pet is a real healer saver with intimidation, then pulling agro, giving the tank time to come and taunt the sucker of my poor palidan friend. As for bosses, my palidan knows to keep my pet alive if he can without sacrificing any party members, he is well worth the effort for dps. SO with Beastial wrath… beast within and all trinkets and abilities… I do out dps MM hunters. Yes.. MM do have abilities and trinkets too XD… duh.
Wrapping this up… BRK… HA! Dang right BIG RED KITTY FOR THE WIN!!
A F NE hunter known as Ky ^^
P.S. I’m most likely open now for attack… please be nice. I’m probibly flawed in many area’s… but my basic point is stated. BRK FTW
But wait, then you realize that the bonus to speed only works after a crit, so you have to wait for that crit and then that only lasts for 8 seconds so you’re not always going to be under the effect of the bonus to speed but a correctly specs 0/60/0 MM hunter (I like to focus) with a decent intelect will always have a pretty damn decent bonus to attack power (from both master marksman and careful aim.) and with the spec that you have you don’t have 100% chance to get it 80 is nice, but not 100%
I don’t actually mind BM but if you’re going by math, the incorperate all the math.
I play around with different builds all the time… but my main staple is 41/0/0 +20. I play my hunter as my PvP toon, but I raid once in awhile.
Ky…
I’m glad you said it cuz that’s what I was thinking. I’m a PvP’er and I LOVE BW and TBW (ftw?). It’s funny to watch a mage nova and start casting a pyro/fireball/frostbolt.. then I pop my TBW and I can hear his butt pucker from my desk chair.
Danth…
First of all, it’s 3% DAMAGE increase for 10 sec (Furious Inspiration) that he’s arguing … not a speed increase. Second, with 5/5 Ferocity (+10% crit for my pet), Cobra Strike (faster attack speed for pet), regular attack, bite, and claw going ALL the time, getting FI to be a constant buff is the norm. Third, a crit from my pet also causes my pet to get a 30% attack speed increase for 8 sec (is that what you were thinking of?)… again pretty much a constant.
Personally, I like to run my BM hunter with a MM hunter… we get the best of both worlds…. 2 DPS’ers with CC, 2 tanks, and some sweet buffs all at the cost of 2 toons.
I play a lvl 70 BM Hunter on Uldum. In a very casual raiding guild now working our way through SSC. I’m also a class officer. We NEVER tell someone how to spec as we value enjoyment of gameplay over rapid raid progression.
That said, we have a handful of BM hunters who are consistently the top damage dealers in any raid, but we really value our MM hunters as well. I LOVE getting trueshot aura and our casters love getting ferocious inspiration. It’s a great symbiosis.
BM is a great spec for damage and that’s how I like to play, but we respect the choice our other hunters make to play the other specs and encourage them to be as effective in their gameplay as possible.
Now, to Dwayne who posited that BM hunters can’t chain trap in 5 mans or Kara… If that’s the case, what have I been doing these last many moons? True, it’s harder for us than it is for SV hunters, but a good player can get the job done very effectively. I chain trap on Moroes all the time and if the trap breaks early… a kitting I go until my trap cools down.
And to say that Hunters are no longer primarily a dps class… well, you’re just fooling yourself. My hunter co-officer and I are typically #’s 1 & 2 on our damage meters with the locks and mages right below us and the fury warriors and rogues well below us.
This is a great site, BRK. It really pushes the advantages of playing smart over raw dps which is what we’re trying to instill in our guild right now!
BM dps is only beaten by a MM inthe seldom fights where pets are not allowed (Maiden in some cases) Or die rather quickly. So Yes, BM has its weakness. MM has the same weakness that it will be out dps’d by a BM hunter 75% of the time =P. Surv hunters I tip my hat to you for sticking it out. I myself can’t go with the notion that “Hunters aren’t a dps class anymore” and then some blah blah about us being a CC class now. Yeah, anyone that runs with me know I CC 95% of runs I’m in. So what i can still be 45% of a 5 mans damage done while doing so. Without me CCing it just aint fair to the ones that liket o compete on the meters.
This is an interesting thread
I was an MM die-hard until relatively recently, when getting slightly bored I decided to try other specs out. I’m now running with BM through the tier 5 instances and wouldn’t like to go back right now.
It’s a tough choice about the exact spec to go for. I believe the right answer is simply it depends on what you’re raiding, who you are raiding with and what they need from your skills. Every hunter should be reviewing their build as they progress through the raid instances and adjust it best to fit their play style and the requirements of the group.
For Karazhan, I think a MM with some survival for traps is extremely valuable. Why? Because priest and hunter CC is predominant (most mobs not being sheepable) and it’s better to know you have reliable traps rather than proving you’re top of damagemeters. Of course you can spec BM with traps too but for me there are certain “must haves” in the MM tree including Lethal Shots and Efficiency.
Beyond Kara, I think BM comes into its own in damage dealing because I no longer need to trap - most CC comes from mages. I’ve also never needed silencing shot in 25-mans, it simply isn’t effective. One of the previous posters highlighted the constant Ferocious Inspiration buff from BM, which is at least as good as trueshot aura, particularly with your party members doing 800-1000 dps.
However it’s not all a bed of roses, some encounters are more advantageous than others. If it’s not taking too much space I thought I would post a list of 25-man bosses I’ve done and the degree of BM friendliness to them from my point of view.
High King Maulgar: ok for BM, although if polymorphed during Kiggler tanking he may decide to kill your pet
Gruul: ok for BM, but you’ll need tight control over your pet during cave-ins and shatters
Magtheridon: good for BM, but pet will need to avoid conflagration
Void Reaver: hmm fairly poor for BM, you’ll need to avoid pounding and arcane orbs, mending your pet frequently
Lurker Below: extremely poor, your pet will not attack Lurker from a platform
Hydross the Unstable: good for BM
Morogrim Tidewalker: good for BM
Fathom-Lord Karathress: good for BM, but pet will need mending during parts of the encounter.
I hope this helps someone a little. As I said this isn’t necessarily the best way to go for every group but it’s working for me quite well right now. I’m not top of damagemeters in my group but do a decent 800dps through many 10-minute boss encounters and am only outdone by a few players.
Why didn’t you compare a spec like 20/41/0? Would that have put the MM numbers above the BM numbers? Is that why you didn’t use that spec?
Very great post. Sad about Survival hunter though. Little love. I am in the top DPS in my guild for gruul and Mags having survival. However, the best I have done is 823 dps against gruul using wwstats. Still, I am at the top or near by the end of the night. I have a hybrid Survival build with points in marks. My playing style? I dont want to micro manage my pet, watch agro, shot rotation, and what ever else that is going on.
I drain my mana like crazy. I get my dps from number of arrows (shots)out i suppose. I spam my macro with DST proc’ing.
I am considering going BM or back to MM. I have tried MM with macro and DST. However, I ran out of mana on prince with poping a mana pot that made me go up to 90% and ran out with 35sec to spare on the pot cool down. with a crap ton of Mana regen and viper and mana regen food.
Unless I get a shadow priest in my group, Survival with the mana efficiency and thrill of the hunt are for me for now.
About CC’ing. The guild master (hunter) left the guild. He came back. But it seems the guild is not hunter friendly any longer. Meaning, hunters are not CC. They are MD and DPS. I miss CCing. I have CC in Moroes 3 times out of 15. The only reason for that is we did not have a priest to shackle. So saying hunters are for CC is a little puzzling. We are starting SSC and TK btw.
gripe and Ill leave
Blizzard took away all of our interupts in the end game. That is insulting and another story.
Though I realize your math was stated as not complete and as not applying to ingame situations I feel that it gives survivalists the shaft with respect to realtime. As an example in a recent Kara 10 man we had 13 people who benefit from AP, i.e. not casters or healers. My Expose Weakness, when active, supplies an additional 100 extra AP to EACH of those 13 people for a total of 1300 AP extra. With 14 AP approximately equal to 1 DPS this works out to a total of 92.85 extra dps for the group. Now we reach a problem because Expose Weakness is not always applied. However in long fights with high crit gems and clever trink combinations it may be possible for it to be applied half the time, maybe less, maybe more but we have to use something. If we use half of the time we have 46.425 DPS. Times the 1000 seconds of our test period is an additional 46425 DPS for the group! Added onto the 490,623 number given for Survivalist we now have 537048, handily smoking MM and giving BM a run for its money, possibly surpassing BM in the highest lvl instances where pets are typically not used at all.
Granted there are a lot of equipment dependencies and other variables here but it should not be ignored that part of the survivalist build is designed not for one’s personal DPS numbers but rather to give those numbers away to the group, raising theirs much higher than they’d normally be. Therefore to only look at the DPS of the survivalist is no more fair than looking at a hunter ignoring the DPS of a pet when used.
An addition to my recent post. Yes, I realize MM also has items in its spec that increase DPS of other party members. My point was simply to point out what the authors of this site did also in their analysis, which is that real life is often much more complicated than a chart designed by us mortals could appear.
Nice chart but could you possibly also do theorycrafting with the involvement of go for the throat augmenting pet damage?
Has no one here noticed that you can copy your toon to the Public Test Realms (disclaimer - not always available) and respec as many times as you want with no effect on your actual character?
Anyone debating or mistrusting what BRK is saying here, I highly recommend you try this out. When you first log into the PTR, all your talent points are reset to zero as well as your trained abilities. Visit the armory, print out a couple builds of hunters you know/respect of your faction or hunters that have wiped the floor with you in arena of the opposing faction and try them out. Then hop in a BG for fastest testing or, as I do, head to one of the Hellfire instances to try out your trapping/dps on some elites.
Just don’t forget to retrain your pet when you do this
Your analysis, with regards to Survival, is a joke.
Switching from BM to Survival, I went from #1 overall dps to #3. The two people above me? A rogue and a warrior, who gained 300+ AP from Expose Weakness and Improved Hunter’s Mark (I specced into it because we were easily taking 8-10 melee DPS and 1-2 hunters each 25-man.).
Survival had very different gear needs than BM or MM. Plus, BRK isnt even trying to say what’s best for everyone, he just saying what is best for his gear.
the spread sheet is interesting, But i have disagree with it like so many others.
maybe i can explain why a little more clearly
the spread sheet ignores the
*Damage: stat*
and only references the
*DPS: stat*
you dont need the spread sheet to see the BM dps is greater… just look at the paper dolls… Bm has highest dps.
what the spread sheet missed was the effects of the damage stat in any shot cycle.
a shot cycle fires instant shots based soley on damage and a set cool down, so attack speed becomes irrelevent and is not used
once attack speed becomes irrelevant, so does the dps stat.
extreme example -
shot speed 20
damage 1000 - 1000
dps = 50
now if you arcane shot+multishot
your gonna put out over 2000 dmage in 10 seconds, and thats with out any autoshot damage.
thats 200 DPS
FOUR times higher than the basic stats would lead you to believe.
thats also a hint that slower weapons are better than fast weapons unless your banking on procs.
the respecs were not a waste as you got to see the different stats and this is important to learning as much as we can about our class.
-Axebite garithos server