Sockets? We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Sockets
The following quote has been tweaked for grammer, so it’s not word-for-word exactly what the author wrote.
“When you have to put a socket in your gear, I understand you should always try to match the colors. But don’t you think sometimes it is better to use a ‘wrong’ color gem but with more useful stats?”
Here comes our favorite answer: It depends.
Are you a newly-formed Survivalist? We think you’ll want to fill up your sockets with Crit and RAP gems. Does a Survivalist need +Hit? Probably not; you’ve already got Surefooted for the +3% to Hit. Do you need more stamina? Probably not; you’ve got, what, +8% or more to health already in that tree.
Marksmen usually go for RAP and +Hit. We’ve seen MM hunters put the +12RAP gem in every socket they have and it works for them. Crit gems for Marksman? We’ve gotten lots of feedback that RAP is the prefered way to go here, but if we hear an outcry of “MM <3 Crit" we won't argue. Too much.
Beastmaster hunters want a balance of agility, stamina, and +hit, so we recommend that you fill your slots with gems to match. So what gems can a Beastmaster hunter use in each color socket? Well, as an example, here’s our humble leggings with a red, blue, and yellow socket and the gems we’ve used:
Each of these gems was around 2 gold in the Auction House. For 40 gold, we could’ve had a +8 agility gem - which we did buy for our chest armor - but since these leggings are only level 66, we think we’ll get something a little better someday soon.
Seriously, we really hope we’ll get something soon. We ran Shadow Lab last night and got the Wraithsfire Handcanon but not the Sonic Spear. How many 65 DPS guns do we stinkin’ need, anyway? C’mon Blizz, give us da spear!
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34 Responses to “Sockets? We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Sockets”
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But what about BM Damh?
Should we prefer 12RAP over 8 agilty for example?
One other reason to not max out on red gems is meta gems. The Swift Windfire Diamond and Swift Skyfire Diamond both require at least 2 yellow and 1 red, and the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond requires 2 red, 2 yellow, and 2 blue. For me personally, that’s a more important reason for variety than the +4 dodge rating from the Scaled Greaves of Patience (which I’m proudly wearing as well).
I recently replaced a bunch of +12 AP gems with +6 agi, but my white damage dps fell from 312 to 304, so I think I’ll be switching some of those back.
Our BM paragraph was deleted! Hold on…
Dave, yes your white damage dropped with the +6 agi gems, but your crit went up, as did your dodge, as well as your and your pet’s armor.
I can’t wait for the day when I have my Hunter at a high level, and for very RP & In Character reasons won’t be using a Gun… unless of course it’s the Big Bad Wolf gun from Karazhan… I don’t care who you are or what your personal motto is, that gun is just too awesome to pass up. Curse my RPness, getting in the way of making good gear decisions based on fashion sense.
Have you tested to see if that +3 Hit gem actually applies to your ranged Hit chance? I tested this on my hunter, and when I removed the armor piece I was wearing that had the +hit gem, my ranged hit rating didn’t change! I submitted a ticket, thinking surely this was a bug, and the canned GM response came back that Blizzard considers this to be “working as intended”. Any other hunters notice this?
-Dunmirik
You don’t think Survivalists should go for agi instead of crit and AP? Seems like they’d get more benefit overall, what with Lightning Reflexes and Expose Weakness.
Beastmaster hunters want a balance of agility, stamina, and +hit
I thought BM hunters would prefer more crit rating instead of +hit and agility because of Kill command and GftT?
Am I overlooking something?
I would think that BM hunters would prefer the agi over ap gems.
If there’s one thing I’ve picked up from Dahm it’s that the pet has to crit in order for da’shit to happen.
When you have more agi, your pet has more agi.
More pet agi = more pet crit
More pet crit = more FI.
ALSO..
There’s a ton of +hit gear in this game for hunter right now. Gems aren’t necessary. If you do go that route though realize gems were being buggy, not sure if they fixed it, but at one time if you had multiple gems of the same type their effects were not stacking. That COULD be the issue. If it’s not, then I’m at a loss too.
As a MM I love crit. I have so many things that scale and give me RAP, I don’t need more. I won’t hesitate to drop a +8 Crit gem in a socket.
I believe in raising my DPS through 3 stats.
RAP
HIT
CRIT
They have to be balanced for DPS to go up. If I’m bumpin 2000 RAP my white dmg will show to be over 300. Whoopdy-doo.
By raising the other numbers though I’m running with a raid DPS much better than that.
-guy
What guy said. /nods head
When you have more agi, your pet has more agi.
The agility of the pet does not scale with the agility of the hunter…
And as 41/20 hunter you woult benefit from the +crit more then from +hit:
Hit=100% more damage then miss
Crit=230% more damage then miss
(This of course is unless you have reached the crit cap)
Everything that is written above are just assumptions (except for the agi scaling) you are free to prove me wrong
hmmm.. Sayth seems to be right..
I’m going to look closer at this. But for now, crit does NOT scale with pets.
Though now I’m wondering what exactly a “crit cap” is..
-guy
Oh well I see I have got some things wrong…
But let me recapitulate my posts:
I believe, that the benefits of critting more are higher, then the benefits of missing less.
I am not realy good at theorycrafting, but the effects of GftT, Kill command and lethal shots seem to be too powerful to ignore.
Guy: check theese links: http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Weapon_Skill#Crit_Cap
If ranged attack table works the same way as the melee attack table does your ranged attacks can miss, be blocked, be a critical hit or be an ordinary hit.
If you keep stacking crit gear eventually your crits will “eat” your ordinary hits. It means that your attacks can miss, be blocked, or be a critical hit. If you would add more crit nothing would happen, because there are no ordinary hits anymore to be “eaten” by crits. That is the meaning of crit cap.
Of course this is highly theoretical, no hunter can reach the crit cap with todays gear…
I have no problem admitting when I’m wrong.
It does seem to be the case though that AGI does NOT scale with pets stats.
BUT…
Crits begat crits.
Meaning more AGI actually = more crits for YOU (not your pet) = more attacks for your pet (extra focus = more bite, claw, LB ect…) = more crits.
It’s kinda why cobra reflexes is so cool, even though the damage is less, it is actually an increase to your crit rate.
Lets be clear here.. NOT an increase to your crit rating, but an increase to the actual number of crits made over time due to the fact that you are now making more attacks.
And finally…
Though AGI does not scale with your pet… the other stats which benefit from AGI do.
To sum it up: AGI trumps all. (except maybe my UBER MM pwnage =P).
-guy
In order to crit though, you first must hit.
no hit = no crit
this is why hit rating wins.
In order to crit though, you first must hit.
no hit = no crit
this is why hit rating wins.
According to the current state of knowledge it is decided in one roll if you attack will hit, crit be blocked or miss. Thats why boosting your hit rating will not make you crit more often - you will just have more ordinary hits.
oh man, I be gettin a schoolin this week.
if I remember right though the calcs at WoWwikki which you are quoting CLEARLY state that Hit Rating ups DPS better.
the “Crit cap” is just that unobtainable.
HOWEVER, i think you do have a valid point in terms of crit rates and procs. If even a small one.
-guy
In June of 2005, a Blizzard representative made the following statement:
“The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.”
again, that kind of tells me, that your critical hit can miss.
Maybe you have a crit chance of 5%, but because your hit chance is 0% you will never see your crit because it gets “eatin” by your miss.
-guy
again, that kind of tells me, that your critical hit can miss.
I never said, that your crits cannot miss, but it will only happen if there is no ordinary hits anymore, that can be “eaten” by crits.
One more thing:
The passage from my post at 12:05 PM should read:
Hit=100% more damage then miss
Crit=130% more damage then regular hit
Because by getting more +crit you are lowering the number of the regular hits.
Of course theese numbers are only true if you have got Mortal shots.
(sorry I have mixed theese two talents up)
I’m going to keep trying to wrap my head around this today.
It sounds right and wrong all at the same time.
Let me see if I have this all straight… please someone correct me if I’m wrong.
Say a hunter has 0 hit rating and 20% crit rating while fighting against an equal level mob.
His base chance to not miss is 95%.
If what Sayth says is true, then he would have:
5% chance to miss
75% chance to hit with a non-crit
20% chance to crit
And if we picked up 1% Hit, it would be:
4% chance to miss
76% chance to hit with non-crit
20% chance to crit
But if we picked up 1% crit, it would be:
5% chance to miss
74% chance to hit with non-crit
21% chance to crit
If a normal hit is 100 damage, a crit is 230 damage, and we take 100 shots, then we’ll have:
No modifiers: 7500+4600=12,100
+1% Hit: 7600+4600=12,200
+1% Crit: 7500+4830=12,330
As expected, an additional crit is better than an addtional hit.
What I don’t know, however, is what happens when your crit rate exceeds your total chance to hit. If you have a 95% chance to hit but a 100% chance to crit, I’d expect that you still miss 5% of the time, but that all of your hits would be crits.
Is that all correct?
Also, if we accept that increasing your hit rate won’t increase the frequency of crits, there are other issues to consider. Increasing your hit rate will increase the proc frequency of Quick Shots and Master Tactician, while increasing cri rat will increase the proc frequency of your Kill Command and Expose Weakness (there are probably more that I’m not thinking of).
Borrodir: Nearly correct.
+1% Crit: 7500+4830=12,330
should read
+1% Crit: 7400+4830=12,230
Also stacking +crit instead of +hit would make you miss some of your special shots, lowering your mana efficiency…
Is an expert theorycrafter among us, who could do some theorycraft on +crit vs +hit matter?
Thanks for correction! Sorry I missed that…
Are you sure about the mana efficiency thing, though? If you’re looking at damage per mana use, it seems like you’d get the same result as looking at overall damage. While you might miss 1 more of your hundred arcane shots, you’ll also crit on 1 more, which gives you more damage for the same mana.
Same type thing, assuming 100 damage for an arcane, 230 for arcane crit, 100 arcane shots, and 100 mana for each shot:
No modifiers: 7500+4600=12,100
+1% Hit: 7600+4600=12,200
+1% Crit: 7400+4830=12,230
(same as last time, except for error)
Dividing the damage by total mana (100 mana/shot * 100 shots)
No modifiers: 1.21 damage per mana
+1% Hit: 1.22 damage per mana
+1% Crit: 1.223 damage per mana
So by choosing +1% crit over +1% hit, while you would get less hits from your mana, you would get more overall damage from it.
Borrodir: You are right, I have left the aspect of dealing more damage because of critting more out of my calculation.
I’m STILL crunching numbers, but I don’t completly agree yet with where you two are going.
I say don’t confuse the issue and bring mana attacks into the equation.
Stay with auto attacks as the topic is pet crits for proc rates.
I’m making a huge write up now though expaling my POV.
I should have it posted in an hour or so.
Thanks again for all your help!
-guy
I look forward to your post, guy. When I just think about the possible way to calculate hits, misses, and crits, I think of 2 theoretical ways to do it:
Option #1 - First calculate whether or not the attack hits the target at all. If you have zero hit rating, then you’re chance to hit is 95%. AFTER, calculate whether or not your hit is a crit. If you have a 20% crit, then 20% of your hits are crits and 20%*95%=19% of all your shots are crits.
Option #2- Calculate miss, non-crit hit, and crit hit all at the same time. If you have zero hit rating and 20% crit, then you’re chance to miss is 5%, chance to non-crit hit is 75%, and chance to crit 20%.
I could see either as valid ways to calculate this. However, as guy pointed out, we have this quote:
“The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses.”
This seems to guarantee Option #2, as Option #1 calculates crits only over hits, instead of over all attacks.
WOW.
I really think we’re on the right path here guys.
Thank you borrodir for that wonderful break down!
I have 1 issue though with your final analysis and attack tables.
If a normal hit is 100 damage, a crit is 230 damage, and we take 100 shots, then we’ll have:
No modifiers: 7500+4600=12,100
+1% Hit: 7600+4600=12,200
+1% Crit: 7500+4830=12,330
As expected, an additional crit is better than an addtional hit.
In a previous post I had quoted a Blizzard developer who essentially stated that you could get a critical miss. That is to say: maybe you should have critically hit, but it missed. Your crit was eaten by a miss. This means that WoWwikki’s attack tables are not accurate. The Blizzard statement is an attack maybe crit AND missed, not crit OR missed.
Both say they are from Blizzard, but I can’t see Blizzard releasing tables like the ones used there and I can see them saying something like the quote stated.
SO.. (I’m figuring this out as I write it, so I just might learn something here)
To accurately theorycraft this based on NO MODIFIERS you have to assume that the 5% chance to miss will effect your crits as well.
It is more correct to say there will be 95 hits and 5 misses over 100 shots.
Of the 5 misses 1 will have been a crit. The other four not.
You may be able to accurately gauge this by assuming that of your 5% of misses (5 non-hits), that 1% of these misses (1 non-hit), was a missed crit (with a 20% crit chance)
This changes your crit rate to 19% EVEN THOUGH your paper doll says you have a 20%chance.
SO… 19crits=4370 76hits=7600 together = 11,970 over 100 shots taken
By picking up 1% to crit and NOT picking up ANY hit, you are simply putting yourself back at the paper doll figure.
20crits=4600 75hits=7500 together = 12,100 at a 21% crit chance.
The issue becomes MUCH more complicated when we add 1% hit.
Then you are looking at 96hits and 4 misses. This reduces your “missed crit” from 1% or 1 shot to .8% or 1 shot.. Bare in mind though, with 1% hit you are guaranteeing yourself a hit. So statistically speaking you just picked up 1hit AND an extra .2% to crit.
19crits=4370 and 77 =7700 together = 12,070 at a 20% crit chance and +1to hit.
Now we can state that 1%crit produces 30 more damage than 1% hit. YAY!!!!!
After one full quiver of arrows that only works out to 1,080 damage difference.
The math proves that Crit>Hit.
HOWEVER…
Increasing your hit rating is going to bring you closer to your actual crit rating AND give you extra hits.
Hits produce dmg and proc talents and items as well.
Depending on your build crit should not always be favored over hit.
It is also important to note that in the games current itemization the hit cap is much more obtainable than a 100% crit rating.
-guy
PS: I’m STILL confused about what exactly a “Crit cap” is.
PPS: PLEASE get and give some feedback from everyone on this, I’m not certain about it but it does seem right to me.
Guy: Well… there are two theories on this matter, the single roll theory and a multiple roll theory. There was a lot of testing on this matter and it seems that the single roll theory is correct.
I believe theonly one way to find out the truth is to test it in the practice.
Thanks folks for your efforts. But I would like to point two things out:
1) You have been talking about percentages, like we used to know pre-BC. But Blizzard has introduced combat ratings, putting things slightly different.
2) The thread was about gems, so I think it would be reasonable to compare one gem to another rather than the raw stats.
It has been pointed out that the difference between +1% crit and +1% hit is a lousy 30 Damage over 1000 shots. Or +crit is 30% more efficient, given Mortal Shots are skilled.
Now if you go ahead and compare similar gems to each other, these would be:
Smooth Golden Draenite with a +6 crit rating vs.
Rigid Golden Draenite giving us +6 hit rating.
Now these +6 scale differently with the two effects:
-With 15,8 hit rating resulting in 1% hit chance, those 6 points score us 0,38% hit chance.
-22,1 Crit rating are needed for 1% crit. So we end up with a poor 0,27% crit chance.
Now hit chance becomes 40% more efficient in the conversion from rating to percentage. Allow me to do the maths again, sticking with the 20% base crit and 95% hit rate, one-roll-theory:
+6 hit rating -> 3,8 more hits
75,36 hits + 20 crits -> 7.536 + 4600 = 12.211,36
+6 crit rating -> 2,7 more crits
75 hits + 20,27 crits -> 7500 + 4.662,1 = 12.162,1
Applying this, hit rating wins 111,36 vs. 62,1
Now the two-roll theory:
Basic:
95 hits, 76 non-crit, 19 crit ->
7.600 + 4.370 = 11.970
+6 hit rating:
95,38 hits, 76,304 non-crit, 19,076 crit ->
7.630,4 + 4.387,48 = 12.017,88
+6 crit rating:
95 hits, 75,7435 non-crits, 19,2565 crit ->
7.574,35 + 4.428,995 = 12.003345
Hit rating scores 47,68 : 33,345
My conclusion, playing a MM:
As long as I can get hit rating on my gear I prefer it over the same amount of crit rating. But my current 94 hit rating give me 5,94% + hit, so I have literally reached the hit cap versus regular mobs. I do not miss them anymore. Raidbosses are different though, with them being level 73+ and therefore the hit rating falls below 95% ( I think 85%, but not sure ).
I think, and this is solely my opinion, the difference is going to be a bit more than just white dps.
You have to take into consideration landing your different shots. Hit is going to factor into alot more than just damage. You need to land your concussive shots when kiting, you want your serpent sting to hit the first time, or it’s just a mana dump.
I think the reason they push for agi/hit is moreover because not everything that comes out of my bow has a chance to crit, but everything has a chance to hit.