A Heroic Rant for a Heroic Catastrophe
OMG WE HATE HEALERS. WE HATE EM. WE HATE THEIR SQUISHINESS AND THEIR MANA AND THEIR TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE SUPERIORITY COMPLEXES THAT MAKES US WANT TO SMACK THEM WITH THE BACK OF OUR HAND LIKE THE PIMPED OUT BABIES THEY REALLY ARE.
/PANT PANT PANT
Coffee. We need coffee, BRB.
/runs to Starbucks
/sees they’ve changed the raspberry
/gets an orange mocha, but it isn’t the same
So we take Doom out on a guild run for heroic Botanica and we have never, ever seen the DPS fly like we did last night. BRK and Hobbes had 35% and Doom had 34% and we destroyed and flayed and ripped cr@p to shreads. Ever been in a group where ya felt like Rambo? Everything just falls into place and the instance begs for mercy? D@mn if we didn’t bring heroic Botanica to it’s flippin’ flappin knees!
Until Tender.
That b@stard kept sacrificing the tank. We couldn’t get the healer in range of the tank when he was sacrificed and Tender would murderilize the mage. Four tries and, basically, we didn’t get Tender below 90%. Well, he doesn’t drop capploa anyway so we decided to skip him. Pfft, whatever.
Laj went down fine but then Warp Splinter…
Sigh. We could DPS him no problem, without even worrying about the sapplings. But the healer… the healer was getting destroyed because his aggro was so high. We watched him on the meter, going higher and higher, time after time. He’d get pummeled by the arcane missiles and the adds, then because his health was only 5000 or so, he’d have to stop healing the tank to heal himself.
What does BRK know about healing? Bubkis. We’re not positive what a Renew is, or whatever a priest’s HoT spell is, but the tank wasn’t getting anything like one. As soon as the priest stopped healing the tank to heal himself, WHAM. Dead tank.
Five times we tried it, and like the definition of insanity, we kept expecting something different to happen. It never did. BRK so wants heroic Botanica because Warpy drops epic boots that we crave.
So after four hours and 57 gold of repair bills, we called it. Whole heroic instance, except for a boss we didn’t care about and Warp Splinter, cleared. We cried salty man-tears, we did. Do you know how hard it is to get a heroic Botanica run? For a hunter, it’s near to impossible.
And today we were told that we were standby for Kara. /sigh
We may just roll a Dranei shammy as we go sulk.
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that’s sad. but don’t hate on all healers, just that one. DCoE might get mad… lol.
get rid of that yuppy coffee and get some straight black coffee and hook up a battery to the healers nipples and every time the tank dies shock him tank wont die and you will be drinking a mans coffee problem solved
I’m pretty sure healers only generate aggro for the amount actually healed, so the only way he could be flying up the meter like that is if he was doing a ton of healing that was actually registering, which’d mean it was also necessary healing.
If that’s the case I’d guess the tank probably wasn’t geared for the content?
Apologies for the standby. You’re in tomorrow!
wowpeon - overheal still makes for agro. But healing doesnt generate nearly as much threat as dpsing. The issue is on splinter the adds agro on the healer since heals agro everything where the dpsers only agro the boss. Heroic bot gives lots of love to paladin healers or healers who love to fade/agrodrop trinket.
BRK heroic bot sucks. Mostly the two parts you mentioned. And I feel your pain on boots. I have yet to get the chess event, nightbane or heroic bot boots and am stuck wearing my icky pvp boots untill something drops…
Shifttusk
I have been after the boots for quite a while. I have seen every other botanica drop multiple times, but never ever did those boots drop. I have gotten myself the PvP boots as a substitute, but they severely lack manareg.
Warpsplinter heroic is a considerably easy fight. If I am not mistaken the arcane volley depends on how many friendly mobs he has in range. This means taking out the trees to prevent damage in.
You may pull him from the point he stands to close to the bridge (misdirection helps alot here).
This means a) the trees will have a significantly longer way towards him, and b) chances are the fight runs out of control and the tank can reset by just pulling him onto the bridge.
Then you team up with another DD to take out 3 trees before they reach him.
Result: Arcane volley on the tank only. Warpsplinter heal significantly reduced. Fight shortened by a significant amount. Healer mana preserved - which usually is the limiting factor.
If the tank wears arcane resistance gear he will take significantly less damage! But we discovered this is not neccessary when our tank once just forgot to put it on…
U know what we hates? we hates people who don’t tip for rare enchants or leatherworking items. I can do both Enchant Weap Mongoose and Windslayer Wraps and I have enchanted three of these and created many more than I can count pairs of these gloves, and no one will tip for it… after spending God knows how much getting to 375 so I could do the enchant… grrrrr……
anyways… rant over… Go get your loot boi!
Botanica is pretty easy. I downed Warp Splinter after 3 goes. But then again, I didn’t have a squishie healing us. We had a paladin who could take more hits than someone in cloth. The idea is that your healer should heal themselves.. they should have potions ready… but hey, all runs are different. We are hunters. What do we know about healing…
I mean, should not being healing themselves… sorry for the double comment.
Yeah, I play a Holy Priest. Maybe other holy priests have had differenct experiences than me, but when I was taught Healdom, I was gived a very specific very unbreakable rule.
YOU DO NOT HEAL YOURSELF.
If you get hit, it’s cause you have aggro. If you heal more, then you make it harder for the people whose job it is to take agrro off of you, to do their job.
The offhealz, whoever it is, heals the healer, no ifs ands or buts.
If the group doesn’t have an off-heals, then you don’t get aggro, and if you do, you pop shield, hope to god somebody grabs your aggro real quick and then instantly heal the tank so he doesn’t die from the 10 seconds he wasn’t getting those precious heals.
I play a holy priest professionally besides my little hunter.
Aggro is only caused by actually healed points. Not by overheal.
I wonder why he didnt vanish (or however thats called on the english client).
The adds spawn and have aggro on the team yes. But someone can taunt them off, a hunter even with explosive traps, a Warlock dan so so too. You can fear them as well (the priest can …)
I wonder what he did wrong. If he had aggro he should shield himself and be done with it and call out for aggro.
Brk, dont wait for Botanika, check the freeloot in the chest of the chess event in KArazhan.
yeah…well, one thing BRK forgot to mention about this priest was his spec. had FORTYSEVEN points in the holy tree, and ZERO points in the aggro reduction talent in the disc tree. he had talents that did absolutely nothing to increase his healing. as far as his healing aggro, he was generating so much because he was using his greater heals on ME when i was taking damage…he never once used a renew on me at all…just greaters, even when i only needed 1 or 2k healing…which is stupid because renews generally tick for 800+ on me. ok, i will shut up now…i may be bitter or something.
Nobody does Tender on heroic, nobody. He does not drop anything but a badge and is easily bypassed.
As for Warp Splinter, he is merely a DPS race. Get him down before your healer goes OOM.
I agree that your healer was probably your weakest link. A heavy holy spec with little else suggests a pro-active healer (priests should be reactive). Resto druids need to be pro-active.
We have little training games we play with classes to teach them proper skill-sets. In the case of priest healers, we pick fairly easy fights and let them compete to see who can get the low record for health on a tank while still not allowing them to die. (Game invented by a very sadistic holy paladin.)
By this point all your healers also need to have learned how to constantly cast heals (and interrupt themselves at the end of a cast when the heal isn’t needed) when healing the MT.
BRK is right that it can be very hard getting invited onto a heroic run as hunter. I was lucky enough to be asked on Saturday night to fill the last spot on an Coilfang UB heroic. It was easy and we got all badges + primal nether for me.
However, there was a HUGE row towards the end because the rogue and the shadowpriest insisted that they had more than DOUBLED my dps (according to DamageMeters). They were on 33% and 34% - I was on 15%!! Now, I was chain-trapping all the way through and I can understand that this would slightly reduce my dps. They also had very good gear (mostly epics). But the rogue wanted to kick me because I wouldn’t accept that the 15% INCLUDED my pet. No way. Tiikeri normally does 40% of my dps, which means that my personal contribution would have been just 9% of the overall damage!!
Now, this isn’t just a rant (ok, it is a little bit). But I am wondering if this kind of ignorance by fairly advanced players is giving the impression that hunters don’t add much power to a group. We have a bad enough rep as it is, without people going around thinking that “hunters do half the damage of rogues”.
And I’m STILL bitter that it was a rogue who stole my steelhawk crossbow. Stupid rogues. We hates them we do.
Rant finished. Sorry.
Yeah, I’d agree with the one poster that the tank may be undergeared for it and the priest was generating too much threat healing. However after the account of what types of healing and how he handled the situation, I think your priest would be an even bigger problem. But either way, check out your tank to be sure. If he needs mad heals right away, any priest is going to have a hard time not pulling aggro. If his gear isnt’ the issue, have another priest in the guild discuss things with this guy. Some people in this game are actually willing to take advice, and you might get lucky.
By the way BRK, I’ve been BM for 4 days or so now, and can give you my write up opinion of it if you like. It didn’t take me long at all to get used to, and your readers might like to hear about it. Positives and negatives from my pov.
Yes! Draenei Shaman are the way forward! Totemic goodness calls to you!
About your healer though, assuming he’s pulling aggro on the adds but not the boss himself, then this sounds like something the three dps needs to look out for. The adds spawn with a completely clean aggro table, if no one else does something to them to generate some threat, they’re headed straight for the healer no matter what. And they’ll keep coming til they’re dead, he’s dead, or someone pulls them off him (fade is a temporary aggro reduction, so at best it’ll delay his death by a few seconds unless someone else acts).
So your choices really are a) have someone offtank them b)have someone offheal the priest/tank while the priest offtanks them (can’t remember off the top of my head how hard they hit on heroic so this might not be doable with something as squishie as a priest) c) have the priest kite them while healing (gonna take some major talent, some frost traps/earthbinds, or a great deal of luck). A tank may be able to survive for a bit with just a Renew ticking, but that’s greatly dependent on gear.
If you end up having to hold out for the Kara Chess Event boots, you don’t even have to be in the instance to get them, people who weren’t there for the event can walk in afterwards and just pick them out of the chest (assuming you haven’t left it so long it despawns).
btw, it’s a shame if you can’t get heroic runs as a hunter, it’s easily one of the most useful classes to bring. Good DPS, kiting, near universal CC, there’s almost nothing not to love. Heck, we once managed the back half of pre-nerf Heroic SV (just after the first boss to the end) with a warrior/hunter/shadowpriest/elesham/paladin largely on the strengths of the hunters trapping/kiting.
Priest defender here:
There are a lot of things a priest can do wrong to wipe the group, but drawing agro is not the fault of the priest. Healing is needed and if it draws agro, then someone else in the party needs to assist. Very rarely are their off healers in 5-mans to heal the priest so he must heal himself. btw, Shield also increases threat equivalent to a heal of the same amount.
A priest priority in healing is:
1) himself
2) tank
3) everyone else
4) pets
You can use renew and prayer of mending to heal others without you keeping them targeted, but the bulk of the heals will fall on the tank.
Overhealing does NOT generate threat. @Doom - If you have only lost 500 health and he heals you for 5000, you thank him. If your priest runs out of mana because of poor heal selection or lets the tank die because he was healing a rogue, then he gets the blame. Drawing agro and having to heal himself is not his fault. Sure he could take the points in disc for 20% threat reduction, but it is not a requirement. It is the group’s responsibility to keep adds off the healer.
I use my pet on the adds. I’ll pick up the 3 closest to the healer. I don’t try to kill them, I just get enough aggro to keep them off the healer. The first I’ll get a charge off (more than enough to hold him), then send him off to the next. The add will follow, they are very slow. On the second, I’ll use an intimidation, which again is enough aggro to hold him. Then send him on a third to chew on him for awhile. They don’t hit too hard. A HoT on my pet will keep him alive long enough for Warp Splinter to blow them up. Hope this helps.
Man healers are such whiners!!! Another reason not to pug.
Don’t listen to those who say wait and get the kara boots. That’s what I’ve been doing for 6 months now, still no boots.
My GF’s GM plays a hunter and she got the boots recently. She told me it took her 12 runs. Run it as much as possible. And Always skip that boss. Unless you have two tanks, he’s a bitch, no matter how good or bad your healer is.
-guy
PS: Zem.. I cried a little when I read your post. But something someone told me about BM this weekend about serpents swiftness and casting times really made sense, and makes me think it’s time to nerf BM’s.
/humbled
I see the problem. Hobbes doesn’t respect you anymore because you’re drinking those girly fruity coffee drinks. Man up and quit acting like a wuss and you’ll get much kitty respect. Problem solved.
Wasn’t there, can’t judge, but as an experienced priest who’s tried several specs, I’ve a few points I’ll raise for consideration.
On Tender, there is one question, the answer to which will tell me where the problem lies. You said the priest was having to move into range of the sacrifice to heal and didn’t make it in time. Was the priest having to move out of range of that position because the battle ranged all over the room, or was it merely because his/her basic position (out of LoS to avoid sacrifice) was out of range?
To see why this matters, let’s look at priest (and most healer) restrictions. Excepting renew and Prayer of Mending, the following are all required for a heal to go off: The target must be in range and in line of sight 1.5 to 3.5 seconds (depending on the spell and talents) after the heal is started. If the target is out of range or out of LoS at the instant the time to cast is finished, the heal fails. Damage to the healer adds to the delay. Moving the healer stops the cast.
I’m going to guess the battle ranged all over the room. I know that the tank didn’t hold aggro. How? The sacrifice is any player in Tender’s Line of Sight who is NOT his primary target. If the tank is the sacrifice then either everyone else is out of LoS or someone other than the tank tops the threat table. Now with Tender it’s easier for this to happen. He clears the table every time the sacrifice is done. And it appears he also does this whenever he does the hellfire blast. Which means if he starts his sacrifice while the priest is healing but the tank hasn’t yet hit him — or if a renew tics before the tank hits him — then the top of the table belongs to the priest for that instant. Regardless, I know that the tank didn’t hold aggro - but I do not know whether it’s the tank or the healer or someone else who is at fault. Which leads me, smoothly, into the second problem — aggro management for the priest.
A healer (priest or otherwise) generates one half point of threat for every point of healing done. That threat is generated on every mob in combat, and is generated regardless of which party member receives the heals. Now assuming the healer stays at range and the tank is a warrior using primarily defensive stance and there are no (zero) other threat talents in play, for every 100 points of Damage the tank does generates 130 points of threat. Thus it takes 142 points for another melee player to pull aggro, 170 for another ranged dps player (at range) to pull aggro, and 339 points of healing (regardless of target) for a healer to pull aggro. Threat talents and gear for tanks increase the base threat and increase the point of pull for the other players (including healers) with the general guide being that for every point the tank does, melee can do double, ranged can do triple, and healers can quadruple. (Your mileage may vary depending on details.) Oh - overheals (heal points generated but not used) do not generate threat.
In the Splinter battle, the party was taking over four times as much damage as the tank was applying. The healer was healing everyone instead of letting the highest non-tank DPSer die. Yes, die, because at 4-5K per volley few non-plate wearers will survive when they’re riding at 50% health. Someone was probably taking a lot of damage they shouldn’t have been taking.
And from your Tender battle report, I’m guessing that someone was the mage. You said that as soon as the tank was sacrificed, “Tender would murderilize the mage.” Sacrifice clears the threat table. The new target is the one who generates the most threat from damage or healing as modified by range. (Basically, there’s an assumed ‘nobody’ with value zero and everyone gets the 110% or 130% value applied till someone replaces ‘nobody’.) At a guess - and it’s only a guess, but based on experience - the mage was inside 15 yards (melee) and kept taking excess damage. The rogue’s already commented that he was only taking 1K or so points at a time, and your Mend Pet was nullifying the excess heals the priest sent Hobbes.
Bottom line - either the priest or the mage was out of position for both fights. And based on the Tender comment, I’m betting on the mage - but I could be biased, and I know I’m guessing from insufficient information.
Two last minor but relevant digressions.
First, an extra burden on healers is varying latency. A latency of 500 means I’ve got an extra half-second between when I start the cast and the target receives it. I’ve had too many times when according to what I saw on my monitor my heal went off before the target went to zero, and then they died — and only then did I realize latency had increased. I now keep a latency report up all the time and incorporate that into my timing.
Second, I’ve got clumsy modification of a threat-meter that I use as a healing priest. It calculates - well, estimates at this time - heals received divided by total health for each player, and stacks the bars that way. If a player is exceeding the tank’s score and I’m having any problems, that player quits getting any heals that aren’t AoE. It’s not yet ready for prime time, but it works for me.
Zingiber
well im going to change the subject a little….
i ran uldaman last night on my 41 priest we did good we didn’t do much just some of the first quests out side but i did get a complement the pally tank we had told me she would look me up next time she did a run its hard to find a good healer so i was happy with that…
the thing i want to ask and see what you think about it is we had a rogue that kept rolling need on everything i said something to him but next green need roll the group leader wouldn’t do anything the pally said something to him but didn’t do any good the mage ended up quiting the group but i wanted to work on the quests so i just quit healing the rogue he came close to dieing a couple times then he left the group and we went on killing….
i thought it was fair you ninja the loot you get no heals….
Adrus
Hell, if he didn’t smarten up the first time I’d have stopped healing (or in my personal case, I’d have let him have all the aggro he wanted.
). I have no patience for ninjas.
The healing threat reduction talent is most certainly a requirement for a Herioc / raiding healer.
It takes the tank a small amount of time to build up enough threat to lock down a mob. In the case where the tank has to tank two mobs, it might take even longer.
One greater heal crit can cause a huge amount of threat.
I’m also curious what the TPS was of the tank. In addition to the healer running a subpar spec, and being a subpar performer, your tank may have been guilty of the same.
Anonymous, I disagree. Let’s run the math.
A level 70 holy spec priest geared for heroic should have a nominal greater heal of 6000 points. A crit gives them 9000 points. That’s 4,500 threat points. (With Silent Resolve, that’s 3,600 threat points which is easier for the tank, but irrelevant to the point.)
To pull the mobs off the tank, the tank must have generated no more than 3461 threat on each mob. Assuming no talents and no sunders, if he is in defensive stance he needs to do 2662 points of damage on each mob. If he places three sunders (nominal threat 260 each) on each of those two mobs, he needs to have done a bit over 1880 points of damage for a greater heal crit to NOT pull aggro.
Now the critical point to remember is that the crit pulls aggro ONLY if it’s all needed. Thus the tank has taken 9,000 damage. The question is, therefore:
By the time the tank has taken 9000 damage from two elite 72 non-boss mobs, can he have reasonably exceeded 1900 damage on each AND placed three sunders on each? For that matter, can your tank be reasonably expected to exceed 2700 damage plus sunders on each of two mobs by the time he has taken 9K damage?
If your tank can’t do that, you need a new tank.
Kirk, which heroic instances have you healed?
I decline to allow a magician’s choice - “well, when you run XX then you’ll find out.”
I’ll stick to the math, and report after report after report of nominal damage from various mobs. If your tank cannot apply 3600 points of threat - 2700 points of damage plus basic threat-grabbing stance, skills and talents - on each of two non-boss before taking 9000 points of damage, you need a new tank.
one thing to remember is that hit rating is hugely important. We can all agree on that i’m sure. Most well geared tanks have next to none. The gear does not support it. So before you replace a tank that doesn’t get sunders up fast enough, or doesn’t get enough dps, consider a non crit shield slam for 400, 3 missed sunders and a couple of regular hits at 190 per hit. Be careful harshly judging a class when you don’t understand the trials of it. My pathetic hit rating is at 18 or so I think. Defense at 513 and armor 14500 hps 12000 roughly all unbuffed. Block/dodge/parry roughly 58%. So I have very good armor, strong hps and nice avoidance, but if I miss my first three shots IT HAPPENS even a 200 dps can pull aggro, and a priest certainly can.
Golraatz
Anvilmar
Ah. Seeing yGolraatz’s comment leads me to think Anon and I have talked past each other, or I’ve confused folk.
Yes, you might miss your first three sunders. But by the time you’ve taken 9K hit points of damage from non-bosses (even in heroics), will you have had enough time to lock in the aggro?
The first and most important critical point about priest aggro is that only the heal points that HEAL count for threat. Overheals aren’t aggro magnets. They’re indicators of wasted mana. They happen, but if they’re consistent the healer needs to rethink his method or specs.
Look, I’m not talking boss fights in heroics, I’m talking “trash” mob fights. Many bosses can easily generate more than 9K before aggro is settled (thank the developers for taunt). I’m willing to discuss the need for threat reduction in that case (there are good arguments on both sides which include a LOT of “it depends” elements). But for the trash mobs… if the main tank can’t normally have aggro on two mobs before he’s down 9K health, there are a lot more problems than a healer lacking threat mitigation.
kirk, you seem very knowledgeable about the game. And certainly understand the numbers behind threat and aggro.
But since you haven’t really main healed a heroic, I’m going to take what you say with a big grain of salt.
I *am* talking trash mob fights here. Not boss mob fights.
My wife and I play together (she plays a priest), and during some trash mob fights, she is literally spam casting flash heal continuously on the main tank. She’s constantly using fade. Even then there’s an encounter or two where she needs to use improved death to keep us alive while we finish the encounter.
I can’t imagine what it would be like for her if she didn’t have the threat reduction talents.
Lastly, I’d ask, what you would take instead of those talents.
In short, if you plan to raid or plan to heal heroics, you darn well better take the threat reduction talents, or you end up in a run like the one BRK described.
There is always a heated debate when someone says that you “have” to spec a certain way to be effective. See BRK’s entry on melee hunter for the ultimate act of rebellion.
Saying you cannot be a healing priest without points in threat reduction is narrow minded. It is helpful to be sure, but there are many facets of threat. Threat reduction talents really shine in 5-man, especially heroics, because of the amount of healing (and threat) required. Those talent points are completely wasted in raids because they do not stack with Blessing of Salvation, which gives superior reduction. Each person’s spec fits a designed playstyle and will not be optimal in all situations. In truth, I have spent talent points in Silent Resolve and I recommend it, but by no means is it “required” to heal effectively.
It is ignorant to say that a single talent is the difference between a bad situation like BRK described and an ideal run. How do you know that healing aggro would not be a problem with a 20% reduction? The priest has fade and fear as a temporary solution for aggro from adds. What I have not seen in the comments is an acknowledgement of the responsibility of the group to keep trash off the healer. Instead there is a categorical blaming of the priest for dying for drawing healing agro.
Anonymous, you err. I said I would not take the magician’s choice - the opportunity to say REGARDLESS of which ones I’ve done that “it’ll change when you get to [this instance] and then you’ll know better.”
A point - it doesn’t matter whether it’s flash heal or greater heal being spammed, the threat per heal is going to be the same.
Second point - you wish to take my position with a grain of salt because I may not have done heroics, but wish to speak with authority although you are not a priest. FWIW I always like people to take a grain of salt with all opinions, but believe that actual numbers need less seasoning.
Third point - improved death? Priest? We’re discussing aggro evasion, right? The only “death” spell I know for a priest is Shadow Word: Death, and the only talent that specifies it as being improved is Shadow Power - a 6th tier (ie, the same level as shadowform) talent. If your wife is a shadow priest, then comparison to disc/holy priest is, well, it’s similar to an SV hunter telling a BM what’s necessary for DPS because that’s what THAT spec uses.
Which moots the question of which talents I’d take instead, sorta. Right now I’m exploring various non-shadow DPS specs (and will confirm that shadow is still the best all-weather DPS) so am not practicing what I preach. My normal preference is to minimize mana use and maximize heals per second, which lets me take pauses so the rest of the players can get the mob’s attention. To get past that tier I usually take one in Silent Resolve, but find Improved Fort and Martyrdom much more useful so they get the other four points. (Yes, I go up the tree. I LIKE inner focus and meditation and consider them nearly indispensable for any build I do.)
I’ll ask you the same question brast, what talents would you take instead of Silent Resolve? Oh wait, you have 5/5 in it.
Not all 25 man raids have paladins. I’ve been on plenty of raids where we don’t have a single one. So I still argue that Silent Resolve is required for a Heroic/Raid main healing priest.
Improved Death is the joke way to describe the talent that lets you assume angel form when you die and continue casting for a few seconds.
I forget its real name.
I do have a 70 priest, btw. I’ve only main healed normal mode 5mans.
Lastly, brast, let’s not strawman here. I’m not saying you can’t be a great healer without Silent Resolve. I’ve seen plenty of shadow priests don their healing gear and solo heal 5mans with no problems. I’m saying that it’s a *required* talent for a Heroic/Raiding *main* healer.
Note, I didn’t even say ALL healers have to take this…just the main healer.
I could be remembering wrong, but I don’t think I stated that this was the reason BRK’s heroic run ran into so many problems. But when I see a priest will 61 points in the Holy tree (or whatever it was), I /eyebrowraise.
With that, I’ll let you all get the final word. Thanks for the discussion gents.
Anon, I like that label - I’ll have to remember it.