BM Grinding vs BM Raiding
“Dear BRK, do you have any data on the difference between 5 points in Frenzy and 4 in Frenzy and 2/2 in Animal Handler? I noticed in your ‘First 40 Points’ post that you were still 5/5 in Frenzy, but now your talent profile at the bottom says you’re 4/5, and I couldn’t find a post stating the reasons for your conversion. I really want that second Animal Handler point, but I loathe the thought of removing the 100% pet-haste-on-crit guarantee. Tyns”
What we’ve got here is… failure to communicate. Probably our fault. /apologize
There is a difference between a Leveling Spec and a Raiding Spec. The post to which Tyns refers is a Leveling Spec. You’re taking one point at a time as you rise through the levels. In this case, we recommend 5/5 in Frenzy instead of Animal Handler.
Why? Because while you are grinding you’re fighting mobs at or just beneath your level. Your pet doesn’t need the +hit against these mobs anywhere nearly as much as you want the guarantee for Frenzy to proc. Grinding fights are quick. How many crits will your pet have on each of these? One, maybe two? You want your pet to get the Frenzy attack-speed bonus every time he crits to make your grinding go that much faster. While grinding up and leveling an extra +2% to Pet-Hit from Animal Handler is not as important as the guaranteed attack-speed bonus that comes from 5/5 in Frenzy.
Now Poof! You’ve hit 70 - gratsz! - and you’re ready to take on mobs and bosses who are mathematically three levels above you. At this point you need that pet +Hit for sure. These fights last a lot longer than those against grinding mobs. Some of the bosses in Kara can go on for five, eight, even twelve minutes. Your pet is going to crit many times during these fights and just having 80% of your pet-crits result in Frenzy procs is plenty. Getting that extra +4% to Pet-Hit from 2/2 in Animal Handler is much more important than guaranteeing that each crit give a Frenzy proc.
Very simply put: When fighting mobs above your level in a protracted setting, pet +hit is more valuable than 100% chance of Frenzy proc. When fighting mobs at or below your level in quick battles, 100% chance of Frenzy proc is more valuable that pet +hit.
Something for all you non-BM hunters to yap about: Does the prospect of a revamped Naxxramas in the next expansion get you all worked up in to a foaming lather? Could we see a 40-man level-80 raid or do you think it’ll revert to a 25-man?
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Does the prospect of a revamped Naxxramas in the next expansion get you all worked up in to a foaming lather? Could we see a 40-man level-80 raid or do you think it’ll revert to a 25-man?
Blizz has stated that Naxx will appear as an entry-level (level 80) 25 man raid if it does appear. (Much like Kara is entry-level raiding for 70s.)
Blizz has also stated that they are happy with the mechanics of 10 and 25 man raids and have no plans to re-implement the 40 or higher raids.
Their reasoning behind this is that in the pre-BC 40 man raids you had many people along as “dead weight” in the raid (lol@AFKautoshoothunters).
What Tin said, they’ve said they’re keeping 25-mans as the max and that they like it that way. Something about how 25 skilled players could do 40-mans without the extra 15…I dunno.
being in a small guild on a small server, I can only hope they keep 40 mans away… it’s selfish, but I’ll never get to access it, so why would I want it… more 10 mans would tickle me.
How about this food for thought…
Yes, Blizz has mentioned that they are scaling back Nax to be a 25 man raid… But one of the upcoming changes listed in the current PTR patch notes says that certain reps (including Argent Dawn) are having their rate of rep gained increased.
So do they intend to keep the Nax attunement what it was? I hope so. That should keep the nubs out for just a little while
I think Nax would work well as a 25 man, though some of the fights are more tank intensive while others don’t require many if any tanks at all. It’s going to be interesting to see what kind of class balance will be needed for this new build.
And what about the loot? New loot? Upgraded loot? I know I personally have always wanted to gank that Iblis blade from a rogue. If only for looks.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23014
/agree with Tin
got enough problems with folks coasting through the trash as it is.
thank god no more 40 mans ….
Secndworst
“Because while you are grinding you’re fighting mobs at or just beneath your level.”
As a BM hunter if I’m not leveling and grinding mobs 5 levels higher than I am there’s something wrong.
Well, only occasionally 5 levels higher than me, but as a BM hunter, I usually am fighting mobs one to three levels above mine.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the miss chance affects the hit table and pushes your crit to the side. Essentially, if your pet “misses,” he could have just missed on a crit. So an 80% proc on crit with the extra hit will actually probably get you more procs total than the 100% proc on crit without the extra hit. I don’t have the numbers to back me up on this, but I’d bet a dollar on it.
You cannot miss a crit.
Miss is always static, if there is a 15% missrate you will miss 15% of any attacks, we assume a 1 roll system as most collected data backs that up, but there is no confirmation of a 1 or 2 roll system from blizzard as of yet.
For a hunter we can either miss hit or crit. The only variable is hit as crit is also static.
|—|——|———–|
Miss|Crit |Hit |
This is assuming you have 15% miss, 30% crit and therefore 55% hit.
If you GAIN 5%hit, you will counter miss.
|–|——|————|
|Mi|Crit |Hit |
So you now have 10% miss, 30% crit and 60% hit.
If you gain 10% crit you convert hit to crit, miss remains unchanged
|–|——–|———-|
|Mi|Crit |Hit |
So you now have 10% miss, 40% crit, 50% hit.
Obviously these are fictional numbers, as hunters have 5%miss/95%hit as base for ranged, but should give you the idea that you cannot miss a crit.
For pets there are other factors like dodge/parry/(glancing blows?) which may change the result of the roll system, I don’t know that much about melee stats for calculations, but the fact remains you need hit to beat the miss, crit wont make a difference and theres no other way to counteract miss. And if you don’t miss your critrate will always stand too, so if you miss 5% of the time and have 95% crit, you will be guaranteed to crit.
And regardless of how much hit you gain, there will always be a negligable 0.01-0.1% chance to miss.
Thank you hell - that is completely correct. For melee, the extra entries on the table are dodge, parry, block, glance. (parry and block are negated from behind). Glance rate is 25% on a +3 mob.
The ONLY way that miss rate can affect crit is if dodge + parry + miss + glance + block take the “hit” events completely away (and then some). For a BM pet, it would need a crit rate of like 54% to do that. As soon as that happens, feel free to take AH - until then, skip it.
(It’s somewhere between 1% and 2% total hunter damage best-case for the two points - bleh)
– Jabarii
Reducing the chance of glancing blows during boss mob fights is well worth the two points imo.
Besides, for a raiding specced hunter, what would you take instead?
Anony, you missed the part where he said when raiding you want the +hit Animal Handler talent. Leveling you go with Frenzy…
@Pie:
Not sure if yours was directed at me other the other anon (I signed mine).
Regardless, BRK has it completely backward in this case.
For levelling, you want 2 points in AH, because a “missed” (resisted) Growl totally sucks and you want to avoid that. (And the mount speed is kinda nice while levelling too)
For raiding, you don’t really care much about individual misses - you look at the overall effect. Is ~1.5% added overall damage worth two talent points?
For me, there’s a better place to put them. Sometimes, as much as you try to avoid it, your pet dies. Improved Revive allows you to combat-rez the pet, which is completely impractical otherwise. I wouldn’t touch IRP while levelling, but for high-end instances and raiding it is extremely valuable when needed. (No, you won’t use it often, but when you do you’ll be glad you have it)
- Jabarii