Kinda Like Mikey
Dear BRK, I need you to convince me. I’ve been looking at beast mastery, and I’m likin’ it, and I like everything you’ve written so far. I agree with all your points and have put long thought into the things you’ve said, chosen my pets on your list, reworked my shot rotation a lot of things, and now I think about spec’ing away from MM. All you need to do to have me is convince me that it’s all worth losing silencing shot over, for I love Silencing Shot more then I love my pet and armor; it tells casters where to stick it. If you can do that, you have another conversion. Amiia.”
“Is it worth it” is a feeling, a non-quantitative measurement. We cannot tell you you’ll feel better as a BM, that’d be stupid on our part.
We encourage you to try Beastmaster. If Bestial Wrath and the highest potential DPS output doesn’t make you happy, go back to MM. If Silencing Shot makes you happy, good on ya. Our goal is not to convince you that Beastmaster is better, but that it’s viable and awesome.
We still get emails from hunter who are being told to respec MM because that’s “The Raiding Spec”. Bullpucky. Every hunter-spec is viable if properly played. What makes Beastmaster so great is Serpent’s Swiftness and our pet’s ability to survive AoE attacks and, with healing, off-tank like a champ.
Beastmaster is not for everybody, but don’t knock it until you try it.
pelides on 25 Oct 2007 at 11:16 pm #
Nicely put there BRK! There are aspects of MM that I really miss… like silencing shot and just nasty nasty crits. Gone are the days of 5k aimed shot crits.
I raid more than I PvP, so I’m sticking with BM for now. If I ever go arena crazy I’ll probably spec back to MM for silencing shot and crazy burst damage.
But most importantly… spec for what allows you to have the msot fun!
Bilbo on 26 Oct 2007 at 12:05 am #
agreed. this is a game after all!
Anonymous on 26 Oct 2007 at 3:16 am #
Idk, guess i like my silencing shot via a one secondish delay but at large range by way of intimidation, which works as a sort of silence on melee too
Wrynt and Pumba - Draka on 26 Oct 2007 at 5:48 am #
I just can’t seem to give up all my “oh sh!t” buttons (scatter shot immediately followed by freezing trap, wyvern sting/silencing shot, and possibly even counterattack). I feel a bit naked without them, to be honest. Please don’t look.
I re-spec’d to BM once awhile back (I respec fairly often) (and I love me some parentheses) but I had barely reconfigured my UI before I was back at the hunter trainer, throwing gold at them to make my pain go away. (By the way, this was post-discovering BRK, although I had only just started reading it. Frankly, my main reason for the respec was BRK’s influence). Anyway, I suppose the point of this was to say… I’m still on the fence about the whole matter, and thank you BRK for all the insight into this tree. I refer hunter’s to this page on a regular basis for all manner of things, even non-BM hunters. I fear we may be a dying breed…
Oh, and can anyone say… “Arcane shot dispells pally bubbles?”
Exanimo on 26 Oct 2007 at 7:07 am #
The only thing i missed so far from MM is Scatter shot, BM doesn’t rly have an emergency button quite like that.
Silencing shot was nice (i didn’t pvp but helped when pulling casters in traps) but was nowhere missed as much as Scatter.
It took me a week to get used to BM but the improved damage output won me over.
wal on 26 Oct 2007 at 7:13 am #
Intimidation is your new best friend. come on down.
Deb on 26 Oct 2007 at 7:42 am #
intimidation rocks, followed up by Bestial Wrath and rapid fire means bye bye to any clothie or rogue
my Guild has actually respecced all it’s hunters to BM as THE raiding spec. No one had any pressure put on them but when you’re in gruuls pushing 902 dps and beating that snotting lock out of sight it’s the most awesomest feeling ever.
Someone on 26 Oct 2007 at 8:34 am #
Intimidation is a very nice interrupt and stun and even though it’s a pet attack, it’s mana based and not focus based so your pet doesn’t even need to have focus to do it.
It only has 2 problems, the way I see it:
1) It’s a “next attack”, so it’s not instant and in PvE I’ve had some caster mobs go through with fast heals (à lá Pala) before it even lands;
2) It’s a pet based attack, meaning it can miss (and at 70 half-decently geared your pet fails a LOT more than you) and I believe it can also be dodged/parried/blocked (the tooltip says “on the next SUCCESSFUL melee attack”).
Levesk on 26 Oct 2007 at 9:44 am #
If you love a spell more than your pet, roll a mage
(I’m just kidding, I don’t mean to be rude).
bob the goat on 26 Oct 2007 at 12:19 pm #
One of the reasons I like BM spec over MM spec is aggro. With MM you are 90% of your damage and your pet is 10%. Pulling aggro is easy. With BM spec your personal damage lowers a little, but your pet’s damage increases by WAY more than you lose. As a team you do more damage, but your pet is on the threat list separate from you. By spreading out the damage, you are lowering your threat generation, making it much harder to pull aggro. That, and since you don’t have the Aimed shot crit to throw up ridiculous numbers it is easier to notice that you are climbing up the threat meter. Your hits are smaller and more frequent.
Toolio on 26 Oct 2007 at 12:19 pm #
Speaking of rolling a mage, did you hear about our new dead zone in the PTR?
Wrynt on 26 Oct 2007 at 1:13 pm #
I read BRK’s entry on that (the no dead zone bit), and while I think he underestimates the importance slightly, I agree with his general thought. It will soytenly be nice not seeing “Target to close” (that doesn’t even make SENSE!) ever again, and that means you can keep up your “…sustained, ranged DPS…” like any good hunter should, pretty much all the time.
I’m personally more excited, as noted above, about arcane shot dispelling (pally bubbles?!) and aimed shot’s new debuff. Does anyone know a good resource on all these new releases? As far as a general overview, preferably hunter-oriented? Oh wait, you know who’d be great at that?
… BRK? ^_^
There may not be much to say, so it may not deserve it’s own post. But any thoughts on the new releases, Obi-Wan? (besides the obvious “Hunters are teh 0Wnz0rz!”)
Wrynt and Pumba - Draka
Me on 26 Oct 2007 at 2:19 pm #
Wrynt and Pumba,
If I were BRK, and I’m not that awsome but I like to pretend, I’d wait until 2.3 hits live before commenting on changes. I’d probably work out what I want to say before hand but just because something’s on the PTR doesn’t mean it will hit live.
Case in point: the bears in ZA are no longer tameable.
And FYI arcane shot dispells BoP not ‘the bubble.’ Still need a priest for that. At least that’s how it worked when I was on there two weeks ago.
MMFTW on 26 Oct 2007 at 2:34 pm #
I still cant even belive that the most talked about part of the MM vs BM is about aggro. For god sakes people we are hunters! If you haven’t found the Feign Death button by now you need to roll another toon! A hunter should never pull aggro! and if you do so be it! FEIGN! I play MM and I beat the heck out of everything. Every person should be running a threat meter. Personaly I run Omen and all the way through the raids its sounds like I am the dang paparazzi, Hit FD and BAM! right back to the bottom to hit my trinkets, rapid fire and all of those other sweet sweet high dmg shots I have.
Guys look, I know that this is the place for BM but I have ran my toon with a thousand BM hunters in my group (some better than me some worse) and I always come out on top. Thats just the way it is so spec how you want. I will just say one thing, dont fall for this whole BM is better bullmess.
Rhust on 26 Oct 2007 at 3:15 pm #
I still miss silencing shot… it is the greatest thing since chain trapping… period.
am I going back for it? nope.
1) a good tank understands that pulling casters in tight quarters isn’t cake for BM and will usually mark a melee.
2) if that’s not an option, I usually end up cat-tanking the caster or
3) just taking a little more time to pull them around a corner to trap…
silencing shot was the best part of MM… everything else can be countered with gear or pet abilities…
Wrynt on 26 Oct 2007 at 3:16 pm #
“We encourage you to try Beastmaster. Our goal is not to convince you that Beastmaster is better, but that it’s viable and awesome.”
Beastmaster is not for everybody, but don’t knock it until you try it.”
Never has Mr. BRK told you BM is better. Perhaps the DPS has been mathematically calculated to be better in certain circumastances (http://bigredkitty.blogspot.com/2007/04/brk-blows-150g-for-you.html) but he has never just blatantly claimed to be ambiguously “better”.
And btw, I’m still spec’d MM/SV.
I’m just saying…
wrynt on 26 Oct 2007 at 3:17 pm #
my comment was in regards to sir mmftw, of course.
wrynt on 26 Oct 2007 at 3:26 pm #
I apologize for the triple post, but I just wanted to say thank you to “me” who posted above for clarifying the pally bubble business (five times fast?). I was talking to a pally about the new releases just yesterday and he said didnt specify which “bubble” was affected. If it IS the main Invulnerability bubble, hunters would become much more valuable as far as pvp is concerned; even if arcane was on cooldown it’s an instant cheap dispell to bring down one of those ret- tards (get it? me neither,sorry again) and as much as I’d love to see that, I’m sure you’re right. Rats! Can’t blame a guy for trying, right?
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 4:07 pm #
wrynt, I am not aiming all of this at you my MM freind but,Been there done that. I went through the whole young lil life of my toon as BM. I have tried it and there for can and will voice my opinion as such. I still say that when all is said and done no matter how you want to do the math MM is your most viable option for massive damage. I am put in a spot to enflict damamage upon the foes I encounter and as a MM I can do a better job of it than any BM equal to my gear and talent.
I will still stand as that BM hunters depend on there animal way too much and have to kiss healers buts to get a heal and without this part normal mend pet and resistances are not enough and you wind up haveing to pull your pet out or rez’n it in the middle of the fight which massively cuts back on your dps.
If you want a lvl’n spec or grinding spec go BM. Leave the massive damage and the raids to us who have master’d the MM spec and can leave you guys at home curled up with your kitty or what ever you have…lol =)
wrynt on 26 Oct 2007 at 4:18 pm #
Well since my talents are in that tree… you are, as I believe they call it, “barking up the wrong tree” ^_^
I just don’t like the play style of BM, it’s too sluggish for me, or something nuanced and indefinable like that. And by “sluggish” I don’t mean sluggish. I mean I’m stubborn and like my setup. So bugger off
… for now, at least.
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 4:24 pm #
“wrynt, I am not aiming all of this at you my MM freind”
I will say it agian just so we are clear…
Stephanie on 26 Oct 2007 at 4:29 pm #
I’m a healer in raid situations.
If a hunter is BM spec, you can bet your stack of sporeling snacks that his pet is going to get some druid love from me. I know that pet keeps the damage coming, keeps the mob off me, and that hunter has always got one eye in my direction.
I love my raiding hunters; and I love their pets… and I think I may be one of the few healers that work them into a regular HOT rotation.
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 4:30 pm #
I guess this will always be a topic of discusion through out the rest of WoW exsistance…Just fun to hear the diff stuff people come up with..lol..
and yes I too feel it to be “sluggish” as you put it lol
^-^
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 4:33 pm #
and stephanie belive me there is nothing that will put a smile on a hunters face and keep him look’n in your direction more than when he sees the light and the hp bar go up on his pet. For this I thank you on behalf of every hunter in WoW. Keep up the good work.
PET HEALERS FTW
RabidPoultry on 26 Oct 2007 at 4:33 pm #
@ someone, Shiftusk or BRK
So what play does Animal Handler have on that miss ratio at higher levels?? Just wondering as it seems on the surface a good skill for leveling up, but when I get to 70 will it matter?? Is the miss dependant upon the Mob i.e. Elite Boss or Trash??? I sure wish pets got armor with gems in them, imagine that O.O. +hit on my kitty rawr!!!!
Rabid
Deser on 26 Oct 2007 at 4:58 pm #
mmftw:
your posts aren’t entirely correct. Its been proven many many times (you can go to either of the following sites and look at the math - http://www.tkasomething.com or elitestjerks.com) that BM has the higher damage potential for a hunters personal dps.
Between equally geared and equally skilled players, over the course of a long (>5minutes) fight, the BM will output more damamge. Its not opinion, its fact supported by lots and lots of math. Im not saying there is anything wrong with speccing MM - I’m all for playing how you wanna play - but one spec does provide more damage. Not to mention you don’t need to FD as much. Personally im prodcing about 30% less aggro than a MM hunter, my pet 30% more. That means I don’t have to FD as often. While FD’ing is not a huge hit in DPS, it is still a hit.
Mana Consumtion - BM have far superior mana consumtion over a MM. In fact, with mana oil and a shadow priest in my group, when I run low on mana I can pop aotv and switch to a auto/steady rotation and put out almost the same level of dps as my normal rotation. As an MM - your mana is gone, you’re screwed. And I can continue this rotation indefinitely without ever running out of mana.
Additionally - with the correct pet spec I have no problem keeping my pet alive on boss fights with minimal outside healing. Usually chain heals and imp lotp make up for whAtever my mend pet lacks.
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 5:16 pm #
that BM has the higher damage POTENTIAL for a hunters personal dps.
with the correct pet spec I have no problem keeping my pet alive on boss fights with MINIMAL outside healing.
Just to show that you cannot call me out sir and I can say this to you my freind I do not have a mana prob go do your homework some more. Also as far as math goes it doesnt matter how much you do it it still comes down to game play and the person so I will agian put and en. on POTENTIAL NOT FACTS BUDDY!
And one more thing I dont have to have heals keep’n my cat alive to do my dps do you?
Deser on 26 Oct 2007 at 5:43 pm #
Potential does matter though. Between equally geared, equally skilled hunters, a BM hunter will do more damage. Its been proven - you can see all the math on the two websites I posted. A good MM will always do more damage than a bad BM. An outgeared BM will always do less damage compared to a better-geared MM. Those are facts, supported by math. Your only proof that MM does more damage amounts to “Cause I said so”. Annecdotal observations do not count as facts. Math - those are facts. I recommend you take a look at Cheeky’s dps spreadsheet over on tkasomething.com. Work your numbers out for yourself, then change the spec configurations and I guarantee that spreadsheet will show an increase in DPS for you.
BM is more mana efficient. As an MM, if you are not having mana issues (without potting and flasking) then your shot rotation isn’t what it should be.
I haven’t even touched upon the differences between what an MM and BM spec bring to the rest of the group. F.I. provides a straight 3% damage increase TO ALL CLASSES. Trueshot give AP. That AP will help only a few classes. Its not doing anything for your mana-battery shadow priests. Nothing for locks or mages either. Plus, at the higher gear levels, the AP granted by trueshot doesn’t scale well at all.
And I don’t see how hitting Mend Pet once or twice a fight is limiting my DPS. As long as my pet doesn’t die, im gonna outdamage you. There aren’t very many pet-unfriendly fights anymore and with the new mend pet it basically become a non-issue. Unless my pet needs to offtank in an oh-shit moment, chances are he’s not gonna die.
And again I will say - I’m not saying you shouldn’t play an MM spec. But to come here and post “MM is more damage” as facts, when it has clearly proven not to be, well, you’re gonna be corrected.
(not to furthur enflame things, but after a certain amount of agi, even surv. spec actually out-dps’s MM…)
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 6:19 pm #
You guys in your math..yall make me laugh so much it hurts..the paper doll builds the cookie cutter layouts of what this does compaired to that..I hope you have another life besides WoW..The only real fact is that Math in this game means nothing but what you MAY or CAN do not what you do. Step into the light and play for crying out loud. Put that paper down and use your eyes.
And one thing else when you are the top of the charts the fact that your shot rotations are one way doesn’t matter it comes down to you are on top.
I never said anything about you and mend pet dropping your dps.
One more time show me a bm and an mm that are geared the same and use the same shot rotations…ha not gonna happen on your life buddy…
Just step back once you get away from all that math you will see the true game facts.
Zball on 26 Oct 2007 at 6:30 pm #
Round abouts 500 unbuffed Agi, Expose Weakness outperforms TSA in a group situation. Bump that Agi up to around 1000, Expose Weakness is on par with FI (minus the helping casters).
TSA simply does not scale well, and seeing as that is what a MM hunter brings to the raid “table” (that has nothing to do with DPS output) for the raid as a whole, it doesn’t quite impress.
Big numbers, sure, but the extra damage a BM hunter pet puts out overcomes this inherent differential.
RabidPoultry on 26 Oct 2007 at 6:42 pm #
believe or not makes no difference to the outcome.
I hate these math arguments anyways, Crit can’t be properly factored to it’s fullest potential and that is a big part of a MM spec’s overall DPS.
Just play what you want/like already
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 6:46 pm #
Amen to that……Amen to that….
j on 26 Oct 2007 at 7:27 pm #
mmftw
I’m a MM hunter that’s pretty thick headed. I haven’t changed and I’ve seen my 790 dps that used to top charts get surpassed by newer BM hunters who are about equally geared, but slightly less skilled. Their dps is topping 875 and I’m milking everything I can out of my character right now.
I had done all the math that people are talking about here and I’ve found that BM’s will hit about 10% weaker than an MM on the average, but their pets are 3 times more effective and fire 20% faster. That’s a simple math without having to show you the critical stats. I don’t purport that MM (the spec of my choice)is the better choice for raiding. As a matter of fact, in my guild as the GM and raid leader, I encourage my hunters to spec BM. The reason I stay MM is because I use my hunter for great dps without having to keep my eye on my pet and I can lead a raid. I can also run 5 man instances and with 1 misdirect I can put 2500 threat on each of the 3 mobs I multishot - it makes for a very fast run when you don’t have to worry about Crowd Control. More importantlyl, I love Arena.
If you look at the top of MM, it’s really better for pvp. Improved stings, aimed shot opener, silencing shot, etc…. Also with the additional changes to aimed shot, arcane shot, and improved stings, Blizz has made it pretty clear that MM is the spec of choice for Arena and PVP. This all changed when TBC came out. It may change again, but for now I’m happy with my damage output as an MM hunter, but I know I can’t beat an efficient BM hunter unless I start misdirecting the boss to the pet and hope it dies.
I’ve been there mmftw, but I’ve seen too many things to agree with you even though I remain MM for it’s play style.
Deser on 26 Oct 2007 at 7:27 pm #
I never said that a MM and BM use the same shot rotations. In fact, I alluded to the fact that they use very different rotations which is why the mana efficiency is different between the two specs.
and I agree that the math doesn’t necessarily jive in game applications (likewise most math doesn’t jive in practice with real life situations) but its the best approximation you can give. Once again I will state - THE MAX POTENTIAL (which is what the math numbers show) of a BM is higher than that of a MM. You can argue as much as you want, but the numbers are there. I have never been out-dps’ed by a relatively equally geared MM in any instance or any raid I’ve done so far.
I also agree about the crit numbers being a variable. But they are a variable for both specs so the inconsistencies will balance out of the course of a long fight. (Yes I realize it may
Then you say that the rotation doesn’t matter as long as you are tops on the meter…well that illustrates one of the problems with using damage meters. Sure, you can have a less than optimal rotation and be #1 on the charts with 800dps and 2,000,000 overall damage. Or you can use a more optimal rotation and do 900dps and 2,500,000 overall damage. So you’re telling me those differences don’t matter?
And I mentioned mend pet effecting my dps because you kept making a point about healing my pet to keep my dps up. I could only assume that you meant my dps was suffering cause I had to heal my pet every once in a while. If thats not the case then I don’t see what any of that has to do with which spec has the higher top-end dps. If your point was that without my pet I wouldn’t do as much dps as you then that would be the same as saying without your bow you wouldn’t out dps me. Its an apples to oranges thing.
MM is the PvP spec. The burst damage possible by a MM blows a BM spec’s burst DPS out of the water. There’s no contest between the two. But over the course of a boss - or better yet a whole instance/raid - there is no way a MM spec will outdamage a BM. Why do you think that the majority of end game raiders use the BM spec? (You can check their specs on the armory.) These are the people that blow through the content so they will always be using the highest dps spec.
I really don’t see how you can even argue this point. I’ve given you a ton of evidence showing that BM is the higher dps spec. You’ve given none. MM is a perfectly viable raid spec. Hunters have, in my opinion, the best three trees out of all the classes. All three are viable raid specs. Its not like some other classes where you pretty much stuck with only 2 real viable branches that work well in raids situations.
The only reason why I am arguing this point is that a LOT of hunters come here for information. If someone is posting incorrect information, that needs to be corrected. Its nothing personal against you or your spec. I fully subscribe to the play how you want theory - but I don’t want false information on one of the best hunter sites out there.
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 8:26 pm #
First I cant even belive that you even tried to compaire a BM’s crits to a MM’s crits….ha ha ha ha ha that just made me roll around laughing. To think that your crits and mine would even out over the corse of a fight is just funny…second yes when you loose your pet in the heat of battle or have to pull him out becouse your pet mend is not enough. I will triumph *get that strait* with or with out my pet. I am sick of you BM hunters that think you are just all that…and for the guys you run with that are MM and dont out damage you I say /gkick and get them the hell out of there now. About the shot rotation you guys just pew pew pew thats why you can just sit there doing to same lil over and over shot la la la all day long and not be in full going mode. Me, my shot rotation is all measured on what when and how much…I can drop dead and start back shooting as fast as you pull off your lil arcane shot so yes I may FD more than most but I can go through my blows and hit those massive crits you seem to not take into account. On the mana consumption, I have admitted that I drink mana like an alcoholic at an open bar. Never lied about that one but, the fact is that I can do the same as you I can bang away and then when my mana gets low pop a pot, swap to AoTV and sit back and pew pew like you guys do the whole fight untill its time to unleash agian and let sparks fly by your head while you are wondering should you pull your pet out and let him heal up for a min. lol Deser man you say that you have shown me evedince of something I dont have time to look at something that those elitestjerks have come up with those guys are just a bunch of tools that want something to be and then make up numbers to show that it is so and toss the others so that no one can compaire…Dude get over it…stop being so angry that I am here telling how the real game goes and not following your sorry lil numbers game…I have been around for a long time and its time you guys stop hide’n the truth that MM is the higher damage talent IN THE LONG RUN.
I dont have to show you anything I just have to tell the people out there what is that is. If anyone has been reading this and has made an oppinion good. thats what these things are for. Not for you to sit here and use the math someone else has done to make you look good. Your facts are not your facts so why do you follow them…hell if they all said that SV was the hottest thing to do you all would do that…The only reason everyone here has gone to BM is becouse BRK has sat there and praised it (no offence) if he said on his next blog that he went MM and loved it you guys would flake out in a second….Go back to your group where you feel safe and get out of here if you cant take it. We can all see that you are getting flusterd just thinking about what I am gonna write next….LOL
Zball on 26 Oct 2007 at 9:02 pm #
“We can all see that you are getting flusterd just thinking about what I am gonna write next….LOL”
Nice work, troll. Could you please do us all a favor and go clog the Hunter and General forums on the Blizz site instead of bringing your “leetness” here?
mmftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 9:15 pm #
zball this conversation has never included you even since you opened your big mouth five post ago so if there is anyone that needs to go somewheres else and play its you, buddy. /poke
Ha
j on 26 Oct 2007 at 10:00 pm #
mmftw - Please take it from someone who is an MM and has been one for a long long time. What you are saying now sounds like you took a hibernation for the past 10 months and woke up believing you are still in the pre-bc days.
You need to stop, because you are starting to make us MM hunters look bad. I do well enough as MM, but I don’t purport that MM can do what BM’s can when their pets are up in Raids.
I would easily link my armory credentials as a hunter who’ve raided SSC and TK, but it’s too easy to go copy someone else’s armory link to post here so I won’t. Seriously though, have you raided past Kara?
Hunterftw on 26 Oct 2007 at 10:18 pm #
Dear Mr/Ms/Mrs mmftw
I have read all these replies and I have to say that it seems like you are getting upset that other people have sources that says the BM has the potential of being superiour than MM in raids. Also I noticed that you said that you dont have any facts on that this isnt true, but yet you claim that MM is far superior than anything else by some mystical reason. Im not really declaring war on your way of thinking, but in my opinion you are only making an arse out of yourself, which is very lamentable. From what I have read in your posts it seems also that you have some kind of an attitude problem, but the reason I do not know. If you think that you are the omgodness leetzors haxxors uber dpzor, lucky you. Play in which ever way you like but unless you have some hard proof that BM doesnt have the highest dmg potential, I suggest that you stop your trolling. See now what you made me do? I enjoy BRKs blogging so much and read it every day, and usually Im the ninja reader, but you made me actually type more than one sentence.
<3 and peace.
Zball on 26 Oct 2007 at 10:42 pm #
lol @ the troll
All I do is call you out for being a troll and you get all nasty about it. Really hard to maintain the high road when you shoot yourself in the foot.
And I’m done clogging this space with my comments. Much love to BRK and friends.
2ndworst on 27 Oct 2007 at 4:55 am #
i have played SV, MM and BM, MM is def the easier one to play … imo
i def say there is a place for every spec and whichever u like then go for it.
i mainly PvE so of course i’m BM now and the only way a MM can keep up with me is on super short trash fights … or on Al’ar type fights. but even there if u OOM then u loose.
we have the top 2 rated SV hunters and the top MM hunter on our server and i even go so far as to humbly say, they are better players than me, but they still cannot keep up with me on any fight longer than 4 min. i even give the MM a SP(i’m hunter class leader) and still no way.
what i don’t get is in any given fight i use between 17 to 21 different buttons. so just because i put 3 of those in a macro somehow it makes it easy mode? between trinket, potion, racial, pet, aspect and talent rotations …. how in gods name does that make that easy mode ….
i guess if all i did was steady/auto macro u would have a point but then u would almost keep up with me …..almost…. lol
DTML on 28 Oct 2007 at 6:13 am #
Wow… I’m in awe of MMFTW, I’d just like to state that MMFTW’s logic works like this from what I’ve seen. “I say (x) the facts say (y) clearly as my opinion is different then the widely accepted facts I must be correct over the wide body of people that have both on paper and in practice have proven me wrong. Screw what the facts say, I’m right because I say I’m right.” I am of the opinion that just because a large group of people believe something doesn’t make it true, but come on man, when it’s on paper and people talk about 200DPS jumps in a respec face facts. though he has clearly never played with a skilled BM hunter, as he boiled their shot rotation down to… what was it? pew pew? Thus he’s basing his entire point on personal experiance that has to be flawed based on the way he is portraying them.
Anonymous on 28 Oct 2007 at 9:38 pm #
pwnt? i believe so
kalolz
Deser on 29 Oct 2007 at 6:02 pm #
Ok well since I left work before I saw the last response from MMFTW I’ll respond one more time….
I probably didn’t state it clearly when I originally mentioned it so I’ll clarify - over the course of a fight, the decrepency between the tool tip Crit % and actual Crit % will be relatively equal for a MM and a BM. Not the amount of crits, not the crit damage, but the difference between whats on paper and what actually happens.
One of your main arguments seems to be “when your pet dies, you’re screwed” and thats true. My pet dies and I take a huge DPS hit. But my pet doesn’t die. The only boss in Kara that my pet usually eats it on is Aran and thats cause with all the running around I personally have to do I get lazy and just leave him in there and sometime (i know its bad, im sorry) forget to throw a heal on him.
It also seems to me that you don’t have a shot rotation. This fact alone pretty much tells me you aren’t gonna be out dps’ing even an undergeared BM hunter. The MM spec has a shot rotation that isnt just “when where and how much”. you should be weaving two specials in between your autoshots. If you aren’t, well then you aren’t even maxing your own MM DPS. And if you have to drink during a boss fight, thats 8 sec at least that you arent DPS’ing…good luck catching up to my DPS with my pew-pew shot rotation.
And now to respond to the personal attack…ah my favorite part….
You say I’m angry…I think my posts have pretty much just stated the facts and my interpretation of them. never once did I type anything that could be construed as “angry”. To be honest, you’re the only one in this post that seems angry. Take a breather, step back. Its only a game…no need to get this incensed about things.
Then you say I posted math (which you feel is just “made up” by “tools”) that I didn’t even do myself. You’re right. I have a career and so I can’t exactly spend hours upon hours of testing and number crunching…hell thats what I get paid at work to do. But someone else was courteous enough to do that math for me. Not only that, but they put it all together in a nice, easily readable format. And if that wasn’t enough for those of us to lazy to do it ourselves, they created an amazing spreadsheet (which if anyone out there hasn’t looked at, I suggest you do imediately. You can find it at tkasomething.com. Just search for Cheeky’s Spreadsheet)where you can plug all your gear into and it will generate the numbers for you. You can also come up with shot rotations and see which will provide better dps. These are cold hard numbers. They show the damage potential of the different specs via numbers and not “well this has been my experience so it must be like this”. If you’re too stubborn to see the difference between a MM and a BM’s damage potential even after all this, well then I don’t think anyone is gonna change your mind. For the rest of the people reading this however, they’ll be able to see the way things are with their own eyes.
And then, when all else fails, you resort to the “you’re only doing it cause everyone else is doing it” argument. When I played at release I was a MM hunter. It was the big crit, big damage spec. Nothing else could touch it. You could one shot a clothy with an aimed shot. You could pretty much three shot anything else. And I stuck with that pretty much until BC. Just before BC is when I changed to BM and realized that it was now the King of Hunter Specs. THEN (as in after switching to BM) I found BRK’s site. Now its been a while since I watched Sesame street so I may need to brush up on my “Before” vs. “After” as well as my “Near” vs. “Far”, but I’m pretty sure that finding this site AFTER I changed specs means that this site had no influence on me feeling BM was the better spec.
This community is here to help other hunters and attempts to be entertaining while teaching (and I must say that BRK has done a great balancing act with the two). The community doesn’t take kindly to trolls. View that differ from whats accepted are not rejected. If someone makes a claim and has some sort of evidence to back it up, the community listens. Disucssions happen. Minds may be changed. Off the top of my head, Shifttusk and Guy both had views that were different from BRK’s. But instead of writing a post that summed up to “You’re dumb and I’m not cause I said so”, they held actual discussions. Facts were presented. In the end, no one’s mind may have been changed, but there were discussions about things. It was all good in BRK-Land (BRK we can talk about licensing of your new theme park once your new job settles down). But when someone comes to BRK’s webpage, says that most of what he writes about is a lie, and then insults almost the entirity of his readers….well thats stupid and you’re just asking to be dismissed out of hand.
So anyways…I’m done wasting my time with someone who refuses to listen to anything or anyone. It was fun wasting my afternoon on Friday, but the novelty has since worn off. Good luck with your markman spec, and I hope you enjoy playing the game for many years to come.
mmftw on 29 Oct 2007 at 6:22 pm #
LOL….Deser I have been a hunter for a long time too buddy and to be honest….I laughed everytime you or anyone would post a reply…guys I knew what I was doing Fri and that was just to see what kind of reaction out of this stuff…It was too hard to pass up getting the whole page in a fuss….LOL thank you for participating and for the time maybe now someone that reads this post will get something more out of it….I loved getting you guys going….
ps I am BM LOL you guys are too easy….take care and keep up the good work…..
Deser on 29 Oct 2007 at 7:22 pm #
So basically the whole thread disproved everything you said and you came back with the whole “haha i was just joking” response.
Well done. …whats that? I think I hear the bell ringing…you wouldn’t wanna be late for your first day of fifth grade…..
Anonymous on 03 Nov 2007 at 12:32 am #
ok.. hmmm… maybe we can move on?
Just wanted to add.. I love all my lovely Hunter specs… played mm since Nov 28, 2006 (or thereabouts.. pretty much 2 days after wow was released, I was over lvl 10 and spec’ing MM) Once BC was released, and I was heading back to leveling, I switched to SUV to “check it out”… hated it for 2 weeks.. persevered.. love the spec as much as MM now…
Then respec’d to BM to help Power Level up some friends so we could do lvl 70 instances together… hated it since I seemed to have lost all the cool hunter abilities I’d gotten used to… 2 weeks later I was lovin it…
Then.. sad day of sad days.. ran my first heroic… about 50% trap resists, ouch… (we started with UB, so I was the only CC for a few pulls.. this hurt us alot..)
oo.. happy days again, I’m respec’d to SUV again, and this time it only took a couple of days to get used to loving my spec again.. now I’m the main CC’er in all heroics and Kara… my dps dropped a little when I switched, but I’m still up there.. (can’t catch our uber rogue anymore, but he can’t CC 2-3 mobs at a time either)
so to get around to making a point…
ALL hunter spec’s are awesome.. they all have their great strengths. The thing to remember is to try them out (I would suggest for at least a month of solid play).. then just flip between what you feel like each month..
gear ideas: I’ve found that focusing on agi/int/sta as the main balanced stats allows easy transition between each of the main spec’s with the least amount of gear switching required… (of course you can tune with +crit, +hit, +AP, +mp5, etc as you try to tune up a spec)
this means I’m usually not the top “dps’er” or L33t hunter.. however.. I like to play the hunter for it’s class strength.. damage and versatility… that’s what we bring to our groups and raids… and that has less to do with spec than it does with being a hunter of any flavour… (yay.. thanks to blizzard for doing an awesome job keeping all 3 tree’s “viable everywhere”)
now.. about this pvp problem I have… ROFL… looking forward to testing out the min-range fixes, and seeing how effective the rest of the hunter changes are in arena.. (oh.. and why do they nerf our traps in pvp? I spent 6 points in making my traps better… now they’re useless) (that’s the only pvp where I feel almost useless right now…)
Kkir - Trapper Today