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Magnitudes

BRK » 08 November 2007 » In Raids »

What is the difference between a hunter who pushes 500DPS and a hunter who pushes 510DPS? Not much, really.

What is the difference between a hunter who pushes 300DPS and a hunter who pushes 310DPS? Nada.

What is the difference between a hunter who pushes 700DPS and a hunter who pushes 710DPS? Pfft, minimal.

What is the difference between a hunter who pushes 400DPS and a hunter who pushes 500DPS? A lot. Why? Because of the magnitude of the differential.

Everything in WoW - except the jump from Azeroth-57 to Outland-58 gear - comes in increments. A little more health, a little more Crit, a little more spell damage. You don’t get a new ranged weapon and have your DPS jump by 10%; it just doesn’t work that way. You fight for your little packets of boostage, your increments of power, and over time they culminate in larger chunks of bigger-DPS numbers.

The jump from 300DPS to 310DPS can happen with one gear-upgrade. The jump from 400DPS to 500DPS will only come after many successful phat-loot-drops in Karazhan.

Lots of little gains lead to big rewards later. Minuscule gains on their own are not going result in massive rewards now. We all know this, we have all experienced it in one form or another.

But many people completely ignore this concept when it comes time to post the damage-meter reports.

A quick note: we are using “damage-meter” as a generic term to represent any on-the-fly DPS/HPS-addon. DamageMeters, Recount, whatever.

What’s the difference between a rogue that has done 150,000 damage in a raid and a hunter that has done 145,000 damage in the same raid? Or a warlock that is doing 500DPS and a hunter that is doing 505DPS? Not much, right?

If you’re got a raid where the hunters, warlocks, mages, etc. are all doing over 500DPS, you’re going to be a pretty happy gaggle of Kara-destroyers. Should anybody be that concerned that a rogue is leading the damage-meter by 0.5% over the #2 person? No.

Then why do people worry so much about it? Tell ya why: Pride. Vanity. Jealousy. And just like in real-life, these can be destructive to party/raid/guild cohesion.

So why does BRK advocate the use of on-the-fly damage-meters when they can cause such distress? Because damage-meters are a Troubleshooting Tool and, properly used, can solve DPS-problems before they become “issues”.

Every week your DPS-raiders consistently put forth 400DPS as you work through Attumen through Opera. Then you start to struggle. You’re running damage-meters and you notice that a hunter who normally brings a solid amount of damage and is always in the top three on the damage-list is now number six.

You whisper the raid leader, explain that there’s an issue with which he should be aware, and that you’d like to post the damage-meter report to raid-chat so you can all address it. Go for it, she says.

You: “Sorry, I just thought Chuckster should see this. He’s always in the top three but today he’s not. I was wondering if he was having latency issues or wife-aggro, or perhaps something else we can help with.”

You post the damage-meter report in raid-chat.

Chuckster: “Wow. I’m trying a small adjustment to my talents, I put three points in Hawk Eye. I didn’t know it would kill my damage that much. Thanks for showing that.”

Or he’s having latency problems, or the new baby is on his lap and keeps popping his trinkets at the wrong time, or he’s watching the Colts-Patriots game during the raid, or he’s exhausted from writing NoBoLeMaJeBuzWhatEver. But hopefully the raid leader and the “offender” will be able to find a quick solution to the problem and get your raid’s DPS back on track.

Of course this all hinges on the maturity of your raid. If regularly run with a gaggle of epeening @sshats, your results may be different.

Of course, if you are running with a gaggle of epeening @sshats, you might consider finding a new guild.

“BRK! Please stop saying DamageMeters! It’s inaccurate and there are much better ones out there!”

OK, let’s address this, and again we’re gonna talk magnitudes.

Someone in your raid is running DamageMeters and it shows you pushing 500DPS. Someone in your raid is running Recount and it shows you pushing 505DPS. Is there a big difference?

Not really. Could one be more accurate than the other? Of course. Does it really matter which is more accurate? Not in this case. Here, the magnitude of the measurement is the same. If you’re obsessed with your guild running Recount because it shows you having 1% more DPS than DamageMeters, you’ve got issues with which we cannot help you.

Someone in your raid is running DamageMeters and it shows you pushing 350DPS. Someone in your raid is running Recount and it shows you pushing 505DPS. Is there a big difference?

Oh yeah. Magnitude, baby. There’s a whole lot of wrongness here and it needs to be addressed, and pronto. How you address it is up to your raid and your guild, but you know there’s something rotten and you shouldn’t trust either measurement until you achieve some data-consistency.

If your raid is running DamageMeters and you’re using it to confirm that everybody is playing up to their potential, don’t worry too much if it’s not the most 100% accurate damage-meter addon on the planet.

If your raid is running Recount for the same purpose, you’re cool, you’re fine, excellent job.

If your raid runs both, now you’re really impressing us. Dual-measuring devices provide analysts with a greater trust in the data.

For example, before our guild switched from KTM to Omen, we did two weeks of dual-addon running in Karazahan to prove to ourselves that Omen was accurate and effective, to go along with it being really pretty.

Always remember that topping the damage-meter is not The Goal; defeating the instance is. If you are called upon to chain-trap against Moroes and your DPS suffers, as long as you provide effective trapping then nobody will care what your DPS is. If your job as a mage is to tank Krosh Firehand in Gruul’s, as long as you bring 13,000 health and tank that bad-boy successfully then nobody is going to care that your DPS is in the toilet.

Magnitude: doing really well at what your guild needs is more important than doing massive DPS.

Conversely, if your job against Prince Malchazzar is to stand at range and DPS the beejuzes out of him, then your raid is going to expect some dang-good DPS-numbers. But they’re also going to expect you to not disrupt the tank by grabbing aggro. Massive quantities of sustained, ranged DPS that interrupts the flow of the raid will get you raid-kicked, and we’ll help sign those papers.

Magnitude: doing 500DPS but grabbing aggro is not as important as doing 450DPS while allowing your tank and healers to do their jobs uninterrupted.

Using an on-the-fly damage-meter can help ensure that you and your raid are performing to the level the instance requires. Don’t outlaw damage-meter use. Instead, construct and enforce logical rules for maximizing the effectiveness of the tool.

And remind people that topping the damage-meter by 0.2% is basically meaningless; magnitude is the key.

Edit: This was our 750th blog post. Holy NaBaWaPaMaSoLaTiDo!!

Raids | November 8, 2007

Comments

19 Responses to “Magnitudes”

  1. James on November 8th, 2007 8:05 pm

    Gratz on 750 posts!

  2. Anonymous on November 8th, 2007 8:17 pm

    BRAVO!!

    750th blog post and the best one so far…

    other than the Lil’ Red Riding Hood, but I digress

    Yours, snickering…

    Gimmlette and UrsaMajor

  3. RedForty on November 8th, 2007 8:25 pm

    If only every selfish a$$hat would read this post…

    Gratz on the ding!

    -Boomsville & Kablamo

  4. Pike on November 8th, 2007 9:05 pm

    Oh man, “NoBoLeMaJeBuzWhatEver” just about made me cough up my Dr. Pepper…

    And great post =D

  5. Felandra on November 8th, 2007 9:21 pm

    Gratz on the 750th blogpost. :D

    I find that the various damagemeters also give people who are in friendlies, meaning good groups orraids a thing to work for.

    For instance I did three instances yesterday. And the latter two was with a new pallytank. He was unsure and so on, but the group behind was pure mega DPS… So was he incidentally (thought my damagemeter was fecked up when he was in the lead by rather substantial margins).

    Well, the point was, we were doing so well (joking about Illidan should beware lest we come and beat him over his head), that we began to have a little contest among ourselves. Who could beat our tank in DPS. Crazy, I know. And that was fun, popping trinkets, rapid fire, B-Wrath… Ahh… When I finally did it was so huge I couldn’t believe it. The comments flew in, jokes abounded and I took the applause of the plebs in good graces (gave out 340 DPS with another 160 from Maverick, and that is at 64).

    So, it can serve fun as well.

  6. Wolfstalker on November 8th, 2007 9:41 pm

    Damage Meters is useless and should never be used.

    What’s the difference between a rogue that has done 150,000 damage in a raid and a hunter that has done 145,000 damage in the same raid?

    The difference is that the hunter is also contributing significant utility to the raid, while the rogue is not.

    Which is why rogues are always concerned about DPS meters, because that is literally all they can do (And Kick!).

    If your Hunters are doing the same damage as your rogues, why bring rogues? Rogues don’t give the party a 3% damage buff or 125 AP. Rogues can’t misdirect to allow the rest of the raid to do more damage. Rogues can’t scorpid sting.

    Rogues require more healing. Rogues don’t have a pet that can be used as a decoy or offtank casters. Rogues can’t kite.

    That’s why DPS is important, especially for rogues.

  7. For the Pie on November 8th, 2007 10:39 pm

    Okay for the newb that I am…

    what does

    NoBoLeMaJeBuzWhatEver

    Mean?

  8. bigguns on November 8th, 2007 11:51 pm

    “If only every selfish a$$hat would read this post…”

    Not going to happen. Said people don’t read blogs like this. It is a mirror into which they do not wish to peer…

  9. 2ndworst on November 9th, 2007 12:11 am

    Magnitude: doing really well at what your guild needs is more important than doing massive DPS.

    this is why i love this guy ……

    grats on 750 dude ….

  10. Kinzlayer on November 9th, 2007 2:31 am

    @Wolfstalker
    To some extent you are right about certain classes demanding their top dps spot simply because they are only there to provide said dps. In most places, sure rogues don’t have other utility but they do come handy when you are still clearing the trash on your way into A’lar.

  11. Anonymous on November 9th, 2007 1:23 pm

    DamageMeters(dm) seems to be largely inaccurate because it has proximity issues. It seems like it does not adjust the combatlog range, and so the meter reading depends on who you where close to.

  12. Hyouzan on November 9th, 2007 2:33 pm

    Recount offers an option to set your combatlog range, or if people research(which isn’t going to happen), they can find a real quick 6 or 7 lines to copy/paste into a .lua file and extend their log range manually.

    I for one use recount and we had a issue last night in Kara where a rogue was doing 3% of the total raid damage. She was #9 on the meter and was out DPS’d by a holy priest.

    I /w’d the meter to our raid leader and the issue was brought up, we found out she was having uber lag at the start of the raid. Plus being her first time in Kara I think she was suffering from Shock and Awe..

    If this shows up twice I am very sorry.

  13. graypanther on November 9th, 2007 3:07 pm

    One other way to get kicked out the raid is to turn off AOP and put on AOC when the guild leader/raid leader is raceing the rouge….. Of course they put me back in.

  14. Anonymous on November 9th, 2007 4:12 pm

    To those not in the know, “NoBoLeMaJeBuzWhatEver” is BRK’s tongue-in-cheek reference to NaNoWriMo, or National Novel Writing Month, which just happens to be this month. It’s an event that has people write a 150,000 word novel in one month, kamikaze style. Quality over quantity.

    For more info, check out http://www.nanowrimo.org

    And yeah BRK, that was funny as hell.

    Amizande and Spectrewind, Blackwater Raiders

  15. Pointyteeth on November 9th, 2007 5:17 pm

    For Damage Meters — I use Violation (files.wowace.com); automatically sets range to 200yards; automatically starts combatlog — when in a raid. Plugs in to FuBar — with a quick hover — can show DPS meters and DMG meters in one window.
    Allows me to reset it on my own schedule (unlike SW Stats) and is less of a hog than Recount.

    Two hunter thumbs up.

  16. Anonymous on November 9th, 2007 7:39 pm

    Not to nitpick something that wasn’t your point at all, but you should try out Recap (Hawsky’s version). It’s just another damage meter (yes, it syncs), but two things differentiate it from all the other damage meters. First, it has a minimize feature that works just like Windows, and it’s fantastic for viewing quick results without a lot of clicks (and yet still stays out of your way). Second, you can output any column shown by shift+clicking the column header. This means you can output someone’s personal damage, spell by spell, or total damage, or highest crits, or whatever, without clicking through the program looking for these things.

    Just a recommendation.

    I love all your posts, btw!

  17. Brahmos on November 11th, 2007 1:55 pm

    My guild had its 2nd try on gruul today (wipes mostly). I was running both DamageMeters and Recount(set to 200). On DM , I was around 9 in the damage list and my pet was just above the healers. On recount, I was #3 and my pet was #13.

    WTF ! And my guild swears by DM. But this was unnerving. I fully believe when Anonymous points out that DM has proximity issues. The rogue was happy posting the figures, as he was always there at the damage center. Then i started posting recount figures - lots of confusion now !

    Oh … and I got Legacy ;) . I dont do kara much as I am relocating to another city, and was busy with the office work, but i got the 1 drop that no other hunter in my guild has, and the one they have been farming for all the time ! This together with recount and BRKs guides seems to have increased my damage…

  18. Casey on November 11th, 2007 8:22 pm

    I’ve used SW Stats for what seems like forever now, and I absolutely love it. It’s always accurate and, unlike DM, it automatically incorporates other people’s pets into the Data.

    I think I’m going to try out this Violation that Pointyteeth mentions. I like the idea of being able to reset the meter on my own accord.

  19. Drake on November 15th, 2007 7:19 pm

    You’re definitely right on with that magnitude thing. Awhile back I made the mistake of naming my painstakingly leveled springpaw lynx after my hunter to ensure he was included in my damage meters, and I ended up getting my personal damage reporting doubled, making the numbers irrelevant to anyone paying attention.

    /facepalm

    New lynx is 61 now…