Let the Squishies Die
“Dear BRK … running through The Underbog the other day, I ran into a small problem. I’m with a group of guildies including a warlock who is the party leader and also the #2 guy in the guild. He insists on being the puller. Since he’s a big cheese in the guild, I back off after sharing my ideas about the advantages of a hunter doing the pulls.
“Party leader marks my freeze target (which I call the turkey), and the rest of the kill sequence, and then pulls. As the soon-to-be-frozen turkey gets into range, I was using my BRK-endorsed pull shot consisting of a macro around Arcane Shot (Rank 1).
“Trouble is this guy was pulling with some fancy warlock business and my pull shot wasn’t generating enough threat to pull aggro. So I [was] stuck having to let the mob get even closer to him while I pull out an auto-shot or even a steady shot, and having the ‘lock take a hit while steady shot was casting.
“Since he wouldn’t use a less powerful pull shot when I informed him of my troubles, I thought on the fly I could either:
A) Let the warlock die and then ask him again to use lower threat pulls. That has the drawback of losing some guild rep for me.
B) Alter my pull shot macro just for now to use a Rank 2 or 3 (or soon) until I found the right rank to gain aggro off of his pull shot. Minimal drawback, other than I thought of it after I left the instance.
C) Some other shot, such as Distraction, which will guarantee I gain aggro. Has the disadvantage of a rather large amount of threat that the tank will have to overcome when it is the turkey’s turn in the kill sequence.
D) Continue to let the ‘lock get beat on while I auto-shot enough to gain aggro, hoping he didn’t die in the process, in which case (D) becomes equivalent to (A)
“I ended up going with (D) and I let the healer know to be on the lookout for puller taking damage during the pull. Had I thought of (B) soon enough, I probably would have gone with that one.
“In the end it worked out OK because we were a bit overpowered for Underbog to begin with, but I was left unsure what to do, so I thought I’d drop you a line to see what your thoughts are. Amava”
The correct answer is, E) Let the squishie die in a pathetic pool of his own demon-possessed, get yer @ss in the back, let the tank get aggro, you’re not a pulling-class blood. Multiple times if necessary. Then wait for the party to get sick of him and ask you or the tank to start pulling.
If the warlock wants to pull, the hunter should demand to heal, his pet should demand to do ranged-DPS, and the tank should demand to hearth back to Shatt because he needs more consumables to give the party their buffs.
Gear does not indicate competence. Guild-rank does not indicate competence. Neither class nor spec nor gold nor epic mount nor title after or before your name does either.
Granted, telling a high-up muckety-muck in your guild that he sucks isn’t the quickest way to guarantee your participation in raids. However, that doesn’t mean you should subject yourself to down-right stupid theories of party dynamics.
When you need to trap an add, have the tank pull and you grab the add with a pullshot appropriate to the situation. With a paladin-tank you may need a combination of Distracting and Arcane shots to overcome his initial aggro. With a warrior who pulls with a thrown weapon, you may only need an Arcane Shot(Rank 1).
It is your responsibility to be flexible and adapt to your tank.
But as for casters pulling? We won’t put up with that here and you shouldn’t either.
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36 Responses to “Let the Squishies Die”
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If you’re pulling in the big boy dungeons… arcane rank 1 ain’t gonna cut it. A big druid or priest heal can wipe out that aggro instantly or over the course of the freeze trap’s duration. When you’re pulling into a trap, just like the tank, you WANT aggro, as much of it as you can get.
Distracting shot is a waste in most situations. It’s not like a taunt where it equalizes your threat… it just adds a little threat without doing damage, similar to your pet’s growl. In most cases, it’s simply not going to overpower the threat generated by a big druid or priest heal. Every little bit of threat helps, so I guess go ahead and use it, but it’s not an instant aggro pull.
When you’re trapping in a group.. hit hard. Hit big. Make sure that mob knows who hit it before it freezes and has some time to stew over the fact that you hit it so hard… he’ll come running back asking for more. Hit it with rank 1… as soon as your trap breaks… he’s gonna head to a healer. Most likely the druid or priest.
If you’re pulling for the tank… misdirect. Hit hard, hit big. Give the tank the aggro he/she wants. If the misdirect is down, go for the rank 1 and make it easy on the tank.
Using rank 1 arcane has it’s uses, but if you’re trapping or your misdirect is up.. there is simply no good reason not to hit hard and hit big. The dungeon’s mobs are positioned in such a way that you’re not going to pull aggro on another group by using a higher rank arcane.
Ok as a caster, the only pulling I ever do is ’sheep pulling’. I normally only do that with a pally tank. sheep pull, step behind the pally and let him consecrate(sp).
And him using his ever so high muckity-muckness show’s how little he thinks of group dymanics or even guild composition. /Gquit and find a place were people know to “shut their mouths and know their roles”. I’ve always loved that saying.
addendum:
BRK is right though. Let the silly caster do his pulls and get himself and others killed. Warlocks pulling makes about as much sense as priests tanking.
Hunters are built for pulling and any warlock who thinks he/she can do a better job is simply deluded.
Oh no not again *sigh*
/me gets out soapbox, again
*sigh* Too tired for this…
/me mumbles something about setting your CC assignment to the Focus, shot macros to shoot the focus, better time-on-target efficiency, etc etc
/me trudges off with soapbox, hoping to one day destroy it because it’s no longer needed
When trapping, I always MAX RANK Arcane and MAX RANK Distracting shot my mob. When the tank comes to get it, he’ll taunt it first which equalizes the threat, and you’ll be at range.
Arcane 1 is gonna get overcome by the first heal, or maybe by Thunderclap, Demo Shout, or similar.
Anyway, what in the world was the Lock doing to pull? Shadowbolting your target? Rain of Fire (lol)?
If Mr. T was your Mohawk Tank, there is no way in h3ll that he would put up with that clothie’s sh!t.
Just to throw something into the pulling macro/technique mix - what I have started to do post-BC was start w/ aimed shot/concussive shot/distract shot/steady shot combo. Probably more of a personal preference but I like the fact that concussive shot lets me fit another shot in, thus locking the mob on the tank (if I am MDing) or on me (if I am CCing) w/o worrying about healer pulling aggro from a big crit heal.
BTW BRK - LOVE the blog; found it a few weeks ago and I been visiting several times a day. Keep up the great work.
Appreciates the letter-writer’s concern about not making things too hard for the tank, but is not necessary. Lay the threat on with all the boomstick you can muster, then keep the turkey trapped. When it’s for the tank to take him back, all that is needed is a quick taunt and a sunder or shield slam, and tank’s got aggro. Easy as choppin’ bunnies.
And yeah, the warlock’s a ego-tripping idiot.
Two things:
ONE - its been proven that while trapped, mobs gain no additional aggro from indirect actions. Healing, potting, using trinkets, using other ablities - all generate no additional aggro with respect to the mob that is frozen.
Direct attacks, or direct aggro generating abilities, will effect aggro. A distracting shot on a frozen mob will generate aggro. Taunt will effect aggro. Umm…can’t think of any other abilities that would generate aggro without breaking the trap.
TWO - The people who use low-threat spells for the initial pull to the freeze trap I have this to say: Why?
Because you don’t want the tank to fight for aggro? Easy, as soon as the mob before the trapped mob is killed, you FD. No agrgo, mob is still frozen and the only person that is gonna un-freeze it will also grab the aggro with his freeze-breaking swing: the tank.
When I’m tanking I always taunt the trap before I break it, since it’s the only way to guarantee that the Mob isn’t going after someone else from the get go. I’d rather taunt a mob with a ton of threat (towards the hunter) generated already since taunt makes that instantly mine and cuts down the chance that a trigger happy DPS-er pulls the mob off me while my taunt is still on cool down.
That said I agree that a warlock pulling makes me cry.
Most mobs that are trappable are tauntable. When its time for ‘turkey’ to die, the tank will just taunt.
If in a pull of more than 3 mobs, your Paladin can arrange the targets in such a way that his Shield won’t hit the trap target. This take a bit of practice to learn how the Shield chains from mob to mob. Usually I have 0 threat on the mob to be trapped.
If it’s 3 mobs or less and you have a Paladin tank, I question why you’d need CC at all.
I dunno. A shadow priest pulling with rank 1 swp or a wand isn’t such a bad thing. That lock was just being stupid.
That said, I found after awhile of pulling my trap with a rank 1 arcane shot, I needed to switch to distracting. Why? Because when my target became unfrozen (And needed to be refrozen), it went for the healer. It wasn’t an isolated incident. I want that sucker to come for ME and my trap, not the healer or anyone else. >.>
I seem to be in the majority here, pull the turkey with max rank distracting shot (900 threat) and follow with max rank arcane. Also durring the fighting, throw an extra distracting or two at the mob, that covers the possibility of the healer landing the OMGWTFBBQ crit heal right after the trap breaks.
I had a similar problem in a pug last night. I let them die. The Druid tank would run off and aggro 4 or 5 things and bring them back. I try and snag one off him so the priest who is 8 levels below us isnt stressed for mana like he has been whining about for the last 30 min. I get one out trap it and sure enough if that druid doesn’t come over and break the trap every time.
After we rez the Priest 2x and the Druid 3x they finally get a clue and let me do the pulls and traps so the healer can keep up.
See what happens when you let the squshies die? They learn. And if they don’t every one will start bitching about it. When they do you say in a calm tone. I can pull and trap things to make this go easier, would you like to try that?
=)
I L-O-V-E Distracting Shot in a pull macro. Besides some advantages it brings to the initial pull, it’s also easy to reapply later on. As Deser said, Distracting Shot can be used against a trapped target without breaking the CC, so if you put it in a pull macro that includes a /stopcasting (or whatever it is) it’s a real easy way of really making sure that guy is gonna come for you when the trap breaks.
@ratshag, khatia(n)
Thanks for reminding me - the other reason you want max-aggro shots is that when it comes time for the tank to Taunt (@tanks, taunt before trapbreak - I did it in the other order once and got a healer squishified. Didn’t make that mistake again!), the tank will match that aggro number, whether it’s 10 or 10000.
Much easier for someone to pull aggro off the tank at 10 threat than 10000.
(BTW - FD while the turkey is trapped is a Bad Idea(tm) because of this…)
this scares the crap out of me for 2 reasons
“He insists on being the puller. Since he’s a big cheese in the guild, I back off after sharing my ideas about the advantages of a hunter doing the pulls.”
reason 1: The warlock wants to pull
reason 2: The Hunter wants to pull
If I was the healer I think I would have just left. The tank should be doing the majority of the pulls. Strange, unique, situational pulls can go to the hunter but those are few and far between.
Calandris - Priest
“When trapping, I always MAX RANK Arcane and MAX RANK Distracting shot my mob.”
This is the shifttusk certified method of pulling crap over trap!
/yell %T gtf over here before i kick you in the arse!
/castsqeuence arcane shot, distracting shot
/stopcasting
Keys to being a pro trapper. Trap then GTF away a bit.
Keep trapee on focus with a focus frame so you can see your trap duration and react faster.
When its time for your trap to be broken allow the tank to taunt the trapee getting free threat = what you initialy hit it with and then feign death.
And note you don’t need too much agro to pull a mob into a second trap mobs do not build hate while IT’d
Casters do not pull except ’sheep pulling’ with a Paladin tank.
Let the tank pull and everyone take their OT/CC targets off of him. It’s easy and safe. The only exception to this is with Misdirection.
Hunters should pull their CC target off the tank with MAX RANK Distracting/Arcane. Healers have to cast big these days and that piddly Rank 1 shot isn’t going to overcome that big heal that the healer has laid down on the tank while the mob is still running to your trap.
I’ve seen mobs vier off the trap and right to the healer because the hunter was afraid of a little agro.
Don’t forget too that traps can be resisted. Assuming you were smart enough to let your traps come off cooldown before the pull it’s still going to a couple seconds before you can react, lay another, and wait for it to activate (minimum 5-6 seconds depending on your reaction time). Think that Rank 1 shot is going to still be holding agro after 3 heals? Not a chance.
When its time for your trap to be broken allow the tank to taunt the trapee getting free threat = what you initialy hit it with and then feign death.
^ That is how it’s done.
Well, I saw part of this last night… a mage trying to sheep pull, except, the mage didn’t stand behind me. I had to go captain-america repeatedly to save the mage’s arse. Then the hunter… (BRK, are you ready with your banstick?..) I ask the hunter to put down a snake trap on the bridge so the leper-gnomes go there as I pop consencrate there. Hunter responds.. “I don’t get into those trap thingies.. I just have ice..” WTF?.. A lvl 70 hunter with no snake trap?.. /slaphead
My time spent pally tanking will make me a better hunter, that’s for sure.
I have been with my guild since it first started…We grew up together and work really well together (thank god)…..I dont always pull there is not need to…but at those moments I do everyone knows to turn to me and let me misdirect….I never mind being called forth to stand beside the tank…..really I kinda like it….sure in stupid runs we may let the shadowpreist run up and body pull but she knows what to do and everyone is on the same page….as for the power of shot needed….I open at full throtle….big bangs….usually a steady and arcane or just a max arcane if they are close….I found that in doing so I set aggro high so that when the trap is up the mob still comes to me and by that time I am half way across and have another ready for em…..as for personal satifaction you should have let the squishy die….laughed and spit on his corpes and then /gquit….find a place that people dont act retarded and know there classes….
@ Calandris - MD is awesome. Since BC, you should really consider letting hunters pull. It’s a HUGE boost to tank agro.
My comment: Warlock pull = LMAO! Let them be squishified.
you forgot one on your pole…i want to see Danica Patrick as a blood elf rogue
Bah. Any class with a ranged attack -can- pull well. If they aren’t being stupid about it.
Mind you, the casters I see doing it (and doing it well) usually have hunter alts and know WTF spell downranking is. >.>
Squishies CAN pull. It’s the stupid ones, like that lock, that make people think they shouldn’t.
PS: Pst. BRK. New hunter notes up about patch 2.3.2!
http://www.blue.cardplace.com/newcache/en/1726842683.htm
Poster: Salthem at 2007-11-21 12:25:53
Subject: 21/11 Hunter changes coming in 2.3.2
The following changes are planned for Hunters in the next patch, 2.3.2, which we hope will go up on the PTR quite soon:
* Aspect of the Viper effect increased.
* It will once again be possible for two freezing traps to be in place at the same time.
* Pet levelling speed has been substantially increased.
Deser said…
“ONE - its been proven that while trapped, mobs gain no additional aggro from indirect actions. Healing, potting, using trinkets, using other ablities - all generate no additional aggro with respect to the mob that is frozen.”
Anyone got a reference for that? It’s the first time I’ve seen it mentioned, so I’d like to read more. (Or maybe I have seen it and glossed over it. Hehe.)
Anyway I have to agree with the majority of commenters; I’ve found that if I’m chain trapping in 5 and 10 mans, Distracting and max rank Arcane shots are the way to go, popping off another Distracting shot just before the trap breaks each time. A tank that can’t pull that off you when it’s time for square to die probably shouldn’t be tanking, TBH/IMHO
Ok my thought -
With a pallytank - Let them toss their sheild. If they dont have that skill, then they may require a puller. Not a squishey if preferable.
If they are a BE they can often mana-tap pull.
I agree - a hunter is preferable over a clothie. Even if the hunter isn’t high enough for misdirect - at least they wear mail and can feign death.
On that note a good hunter in my guild always feigns death just as the tank breaks the trap. Something we had never even though of until she tried it one day.
Just before the tank breaks the trap, popping a FD can help them with the aggro building on it. If it heads for the healer - the tank is within taunting range anyway.
If that fails…my rogue has a blind waiting
But BRK - what do you think of popping a FD just before the trap breaks?
ps: Brk im also angry at you for 2 reasons.
Not that I blame you - you probably have millions
1) You forgot my blog on the last 2 linked to pages
2) The snake trap on lowbies flagged trick? Comeon! Its bad enough having you allies assaulting our young let alone killing them with snakes!
Currently levelling a pallytank - ive seen you guys running around tranquillen killing our poor wee quest givers
Mind you I guess the horde does the same - Love your Blog BRK!
Who pulls? Whoever knows the dungeon.
Putting my tank hat on, if you pull and you do so with something that a demoralising roar won’t pull off you, you’d better be ready to manage that mob on your lonesome, ‘cos I sure won’t.
Putting my hunter hat on - for trapping I pull my trap target off with Aimed Shot + Arcane Shot + Distracting Shot. Why? Because I want the tank to have as much threat as possible when they taunt it and break the trap, and if my trap resists I want it to chase me (who can wing clip, concussive shot and take a couple of hits) rather than the healer.
If it’s not the tank pulling, then it should be the hunter. It’s quite strange to have another class doing it but ultimately it goes down to who has the most confidence to pull off the pull successfully.
There is some confusion there with the poor kid who wrote in though. What he was doing wasn’t pulling, it was splitting. Splitting is when you pull one mob out away from the rest of the pack to be handled seperately. Very different ball game you’ve gotten yourself in to.
When pulling the aim is to get the attention of the mob or pack in such a way that the tank can easily split their mob off (or multiple mobs) as well as others split their mobs off whether it be through shackles/sheeps or by attacking and grabbing the mobs attention. The best way to do this is through a low threat attack such as Arcane Shot Rank 1. This way if a tanks taunt fails they just need one hit and the mob is theirs.
Splitting on the other hand, you want to get as much aggro as possible. Why? Because you want the mob in a certain position (either around a corner out of LoS so it can’t heal, in an off-tanks loving waiting arms, or an ice trap). The last thing you want it to do is make a little detour via the healer or some other squishy.
Most of the time when splitting it will be to chain trap, so you want to build up enough aggro initially that you don’t have to switch targets back to your trap target once it initially gets caught. I usually start off with Distract Shot (max rank), Concussive Shot (max rank), then kite it with jump shots (Arcane & Distract if the cooldown is up) back to the trap. That way I can then decide where I want to go stand to DPS, drop another trap instantly in that direction so the mob takes one step and lands in the second trap … then once that is broken will run straight to the 3rd without any detours, 4th, 5th etc all without any intervention by myself so I can keep my DPS up on the current mob.
So to the poor kid who wrote in, you’re ice trapping and you want to be able to trap the entire time should others get in trouble. Max threat on the trap mob, ignore the rest. They’re the warlocks problem not yours.
In addition to that, distract shot should never be on your toolbar. It should always be a macro
/cast Distract Shot
/stopcasting
Why? Because distract shot doesn’t brake CC, you can cast it at a trapped target to build more threat. That said, once a mob is trapped you should be DPSing.
hehe, the warlock in me laugh at the warlock wanting to pull. seriously, as a warlock your two jobs in UB is to focus-seduce and to DoT the focus-fired mob. Even if you are leading the dungeon run, it doesn’t mean you have to do everything. As Mr. T would probably say, “I pity the fool, I pity the fool.”
I wonder, if he’s #2, if the Hunter in question has tried talking to #1 about #2’s egomaniacal tendencies. Certainly, as a guild officer, I’d want to know if a fellow officer (or any guildie) was pulling stupid shit like that. Of course, if #2 is a close personal friend of #1, that might cause issues, but it’s a thought.
Anyway, on the rare occasions I tank, I usually like to pull myself, but if the Hunter wants, the Hunter can certainly go nuts, especially if they MD. If they can’t get rid of their extras without getting the healer killed, mind you, I’m sure as hell not saving their dumb asses, I’m running for the damned instance exit.
This principle also applies to anyone who’s not qualified to pull: if you want to, go nuts, but if you get people killed, yourself included, it ceases to be my problem (especially since I can only AOE taunt once every ten minutes), and that’s most certainly how I’d approach that Warlock (I’d actually probably punt him if I was group lead no matter who he was, but then I’m also an impolitic dick like that).
best line in entire post
“Gear does not indicate competence. Guild-rank does not indicate competence. Neither class nor spec nor gold nor epic mount nor title after or before your name does either.”
put this in giant neon letters over every major city.
I have some various ways pulling actually, i tend to save MD for trickier pulls but then i often use Aimed, Arcane (max) and either Steady or Distracting (if i need to move).
When the mob is tauntable and MD is still on CD i again use Aimed/Arcane/Distract or any combo of those and shout out on TS it needs to be taunted.
If a mob aint tauntable i tend to use scorpid sting (0 aggro) so a small slap of the tank will get it off me.
I never worry about threat when trapping a target, i use max Arcane rank and often distract (as it wont break traps) aswell if i need to retrap it for a longer period of time. Just a matter of staying above healer aggro in case it breaks early.
A tank will likely taunt it anyway when he grabs it from a trap.
“If the warlock wants to pull, the hunter should demand to heal, his pet should demand to do ranged-DPS, and the tank should demand to hearth back to Shatt because he needs more consumables to give the party their buffs.”
I LOLed that that one - classic!
As a Tank I endorse this BRK article and comment thread. Lots of comments here are all usefull if understood properly.
I’m a Paladin Tank and tanks a lot. I always pull as the tank or in special cases If I have a hunter in group to misdirect a mob in a tricky location and Avengers Shield slam it when out of tricky location.
When I have a Mage in group I always prefer to have him sheep only after I have let Avengers Shield fly to targets and in process IF hiting the pull to sheep after or it will usually break if done before I AS hit. At that point right after the Mage can immediately sheep it while target is dazed from Avengers Shield but it has the tank aggro on it when time to break it IF that was how the initial aggro hit occured. Also i usually try to avoid hitting the hunter trap target if I ever select on, but if AS did hit Hunter target to trap the Hunter better pull hard with his/her shots to overcome all the aggro on the target to be trapped as they will usually need to.
If in the pull I did not hit target whether it was trapped by a good Hunter or Mage I usually when cones time to break it last I usually Avengers Shield slam it for aggro and a dazed effect. If need to I’ll use my taunt but I prefer to not
have it on cooldown unless I really have to.
A Warlock tanking is just plain bad. If a caster can’t learn not to tank with a good tank in group then I let him or her tank of course and I dps and watch that person die quickly, eventually they learn quick to stick to dps at range and let me do my job.
Hi guys, Umer and Battlecat here.
I always open up on the mob like shifttusk says. Max Distract and Arcane.
When its time to tank the trapped mob, In lieu of Feign Death, I often I run up to it and hit it with Disengage. (remember that ability?)
All you max-dps’rs can rest assured that with the new shortened Dead Zone, its easy to take a step back and start firing away.
As a warlock, I have effectively pulled in instances before. It’s not hard. It’s simply a matter of using the right spell. And a max ranked Shadowbolt does not constitute the right spell.
If I’m running without a hunter and the tank is unfamiliar with the pull (let’s say SLabs, like last night, where you have to pull the Malicious Instructors and try not to pull the sitting mobs praying to Blackheart the Inciter), I’ll typically cast Curse of Shadows. It causes no damage, but it damn sure catches her attention. When she’s coming solo, the tank easily pull aggro. On mobs of 2 or more, I’ll do the same, but since I’m Demon specced, I’ll typically off-tank if required, provided the healer throws my felguard some health.
Aggro management - a warlock’s best friend.