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“Dear BRK, my guildies don’t believe that BM hunters can do great DPS in high level instances and raids. Also, they refuse to heal my pet because of “mana wastage”. They say that many online statistics say the MM hunter is better for raiding and that the BM spec causes the pet to die a lot. Could you please help me to convince them that BM hunters can be viable in endgame raids? Sincerely, The Frek”
Email icon provided by Nexodyne.
Sounds like Frekkie needs a new guild. His current guild is obviously run by people with rather close-minded views of the world.
Last night in SSC I was in Group 3 with three other BM hunters. The Ferocious Inspiration stacking was insane, up to 12% extra damage for the group. WWS showed rogue in 1’st with 1120 DPS, BM Hunter in 2’nd with 1050 DPS and me (BM Hunter) in 3’rd with 1020 DPS. We downed 4 bosses and ran out of time to get number 5 (he’s so dead tonight, I want my gloves).
My pet need heals but normally my HOT I put on him is good enough for any boss fight. I know my pet gets heals from other places, but I have never looked into it.
Too bad you are in a guild like that.
If a guild told me to prove BM was better than MM, I’d simply throw it right back at them and tell them to prove their opinions. I find it more rewarding for them to spend the time to display their ignorance rather tan waste my time doing it.
Frek,
Stick it to ‘em. Show them that you can manage your pet, DPS the crap out of anything down range and CC with the best of ‘em. Tell them not to worry about pet heals. Save the squishies with a well timed growl. Let them know you’re in control of the situation. After a few times they may just start throwing a pet heal here and there.
Have them take a look at SW stats so they can see your damage totals and your pets. Convince them to get you into a 10-man raid or a 25 man and do your thing, wow them with your ability to do some serious damage. If your gear is decent, go head to head with a MM hunter (and make sure he’s using his pet too).
Also let them know that BM hunters’ pets can stay on a boss doing significant amounts of damage while the raid runs and hides (aran for example). Talents in the BM tree provides more pet survivability then the MM tree.
Of COURSE BRK is biased… it’s a BM hunter blog, that’s the whole point. There’s plenty of data on Elitist Jerks to back up BM spec as well.
-Ripcat & Silence
my GL used to think MM>BM… but after running kara with me a few times, he’s re-specc’d his hunter alt… and even if MM was better, my guild wouldn’t ask me to re-spec to something I’m not happy with. a spec is crap, even if it’s BM, if you aren’t happy with it
I feel for ya Frek. Luckily my guild understands that BM hunters not only dish out the pain, but also help others to as well. The tanks fight over me to be in their group for Ferocious Inspiration. Sometimes they threaten to strike if they don’t get a BM hunter and a shammy (for Windfury) in their group. I also gave up some mana efficiency for Imp Hunter’s Mark so all the melee could benefit a little.
Careful group placement of your BM hunters can really up your raid dps. I love it when I get into a group with another BM hunter and a MM hunter with Trueshot… slap Kings, Might and Salvation on me and I can go hog wild.
Last week in SSC, I got into a group with a feral druid which put my crit at almost 36% and for the night I averaged over 1300 dps. Find me a marksman that can sustain that level of dps over the course of a night (with equivalent gear) and I will… dunno what I’ll do because I’ve just never seen a MM hunter who can keep that level of sustained damage up.
Their burst damage is sick, but their slow attack speed and weak pets keep them below us BM in dps and net damage consistently.
I say Frekkie needs to challenge his Guildmates to a duel, kick their asses and perhaps THAT will convince them.
Though, I have to admit that after running with both BM and MM hunters in raids, and yes the BM pets were healed, I am still more likely to invite an MM hunter, preferably one with some SV to get the stronger traps.
Frek, point them to the Nihilum site were there is a nice BM guide for raiding. You can’t say that they haven’t tried and tested it
http://nihilum.mousesports.com/en/article/31,ahoqs_and_blomstershots_guide_for_survival_and_beastmaster_raiding_/
Go Europe!!!
Frek, drop that guild like a bad habit. If they don’t understand that any of the three hunter trees, or intelligent combination of those three, are raid viable, then they arent going to progress very far. It projects an attitude towards typecasting class roles that just doesn’t fit in this new world of raiding.
However, if you want they want proof, just direct them to the guild armory’s of the top 5 world progressed guilds and they will see a number of raiding BM hunters…
Also, point them toward Gankbang.com. If you do a search of hunters and select ranged damage as the sort filter, you will see that 41/20/0 hunters from the top raiding guilds on your server are at the top.
Frek, I’ll throw out another reason to leave that guild of yours behind:
“Also, they refuse to heal my pet because of “mana wastage” … and the BM spec causes the pet to die a lot.”
I’m a holy priest and the lead healer for my guild. If your healers are actually spewing nonsense like that, then your guild needs some new healers. Pronto. Unless, of course, they like gimping the DPS of their locks and hunters.
Healing pets, regardless of class or spec, isn’t hard. A HOT or two, combined with other forms of group healing is usually more than enough to get the job done unless the pet is off-tanking. BM pets are the easiest to heal of all, thanks to your talents. The benefit is tremendous for what little effort does into it - heal those pets!
Wow. Just…wow. Sounds like there’s a die hard MM hunter in the guild leadership who simply can’t let go of the pre BC days of yore. Have them go read the 3004 posts over at elitist jerks that point out BM is better than MM.
And exactly *where* on the net are they finding ideas that MM is better?
Frek, the reason your Guildies don’t believe BM Hunters do insane damage is because they never config’d their Dmg Meters correctly, so your Pet’s damage is not added to yours which means you look more like a Huntard and not the weapon of mass destruction that you really are.
Get yourself a damage meter and configure it properly so your Pet’s DPS is added to your own. Then go Raiding or even just hit an Instance with your Guild, throw up the damage meter and watch virtual jaws drop as your mates see just how much DPS you’re capable of. As a 41/20/0 Hunter my Pet does 25% to 30% of my DPS, with bursts on single Mob fights up to 35%. That’s a Boar mind you, hardly a high DPS Pet, even with Gore.
And as Aodie said, when you’ve slapped them in the face with the facts and they still don’t believe you, ask them to provide you with evidence that you yourself (not BM Hunters in general, but you) are detrimental to the Raid when spec’d BM.
@pelides
Why would you take Salv? Get Kings, Might, Wisdom and L2FD. Salv disrupts your misdirects and leads to your death plus as any good hunter will tell you, the extra mana from Wisdom is more DPS and by far 10000000% important than wasting a pallie buff on Salv. I sure hope that was a typo.
Your guild healers refuse to heal your pet? Mana wasteage?
Ask them how they’d feel if the guild refused to pull mobs off their squishy butts because it was rage or focus wasteage?
1st keep the Tank alive and then keep the DPS alive. It’s a SIMPLE concept.
Please just ask them how numbers can be biased? The numbers don’t like them or they don’t like the numbers?
BM is definitely king for our hunters as well. Add the 2 piece T6 set bonus and your pet hardly ever dies. Survival starts becoming interesting at the Hyjal/BT gear levels. Expose Weakness gets really interesting when you’ve got 600-700 agility (unbuffed).
BRK .. ignore the MacBook Air .. its got shitty built in Intel graphics. Its damn sexy but WoW would be painful. Of course, you could buy one of those AND a MacPro and be all set !!
We are specing our MacPro and dual 20″ (or maybe dual 22″…) LCD monitors as we speak!
Write. Whatever.
Frek, you are dealing with people for whom changing their minds is a sign of weakness. No matter what evidence you provide they will find a way of discounting it. Tell them they are right, however with the changes that Blizzard made in 2.3.2, Beast Master is now as good as Marksman. Then, show them on damage meters or whatever. Now they have an out for their ego.
Or drop them and go find some other guild.
Thank You Kindly,
Corwyn
I used to be an MM hunter. I kept getting whispered by the guild leaders in raids to give more “pew pew.” I respecced to your build. Then, I joined another raid and mentioned that I’d respecced and the raid leader inspected my points thinking he’d have to tell me to change. He said “Oh! That’s the exact spec we were going to ask you to do! Good” The the last (which was also my first) time doing SSC, I was in the top 5 in the 25 man raid.
I told the guild leader I respecced to your build and he said who’s BRK? But then he was happy this was the build I had.
Frek, dear, sweetie, listen to a guild mom….
No matter how much you like, admire, adore, love these people, they don’t love you. Pack up your pet, your ammo, your Fel Mana pots, (which you shouldn’t be sharing) and leave, pronto, now. I’ve been in groups where this kind of prejudice reigns. It doesn’t change. You can refer them here. You can refer them there. You can tell them to prove their assertion instead of you having to disprove it. They won’t listen and you’ll go batty trying to convince them. You deserve better, hun. Go now. Flee and, when they sink, as they will when you walk away, just be nice and don’t say, “Told you so.” Come back and tell us and we’ll rejoice. H3ll, I’ll buy the next round.
Any group that will not heal a pet is not worth grouping with no matter how much you need the instance or the quest completed. Totally buffed, UrsaMajor can top the 15K health bar. But if he’s in battle with something that sneezes for 9K, that doesn’t last very long. I am not asking for the uber heal, just a nice underarm, over-the-shoulder after you’ve saved the tank heal. A healer that helps keep my pet alive gets my undying devotion and I’ll happily sacrifice some of my boss killing to keep their squishy self alive.
Frek, you need a new guild, one that respects you for what you’ve chosen to play. I’m sure any one of us who have posted would love to have you come play with us. The aphorism is true “Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.”
Your guildies have a lot to learn about hunters. I cannot believe they actually believe “the BM spec causes the pet to die a lot.” That is like saying a warrior acting as a Tank gets hit more… dude! (hand swings up and hits forehead).
The BM spec is specifically designed to allow the pet to get in there, get hit and still contribute. A BM pet has more HP and more armor. It’s not the BM spec that causes the pet to die more… it’s their attitude of “mana wastage”.
If your pet is in the fight they will take damage… if they continue to take damage and are never healed, they will die. However, if they are in the fight they will contribute! How big is the extra few percent of damage they contribute, (over another spec’s pet), when the raid misses getting the boss down by x%?
Now, about BM vs. MM… is MM better than BM… who knows? It is a fact that BM hunters are playing significant roles in ‘good’ Raiding guilds. Thus… it is a ‘good’ raiding spec.
@Bravehawk
First off… did I read that correctly? Did you call me not a good hunter? I’ll let it slide this time, but if 1350 dps in T4 and heroic gear makes me a bad hunter…
I have always done the kings, might, wisdom trio in the past. I gave Salv a go this weekend and HOLY CRAP COULD I EVER OPEN UP! I always use a major mageblood and superior mana oil so I don’t sweat mana regen and if need be… there’s always Viper.
Salv doesn’t waste the MD. Our tanks are aggro generating monsters. I just need to point the mob in the right direction.
I still feign when it’s cooled down, but with Wisdom on, I usually have to back off to autoshot or simply stop shooting before the next feign cooldown so I don’t overtake the tank.
With this combo of pally buffs, I was able to open up the floodgates of dps and not sweat aggro for even a millisecond.
If you aren’t damn good friends with these people, leave fast. They probably have those types of opinions of every class and build and it will just kill them in the long run.
If they are good friends, then they should let you raid, and work at getting equivalent gear to a MM hunter. Once you have a fair contest set up for a raid like Kara or some such, put the MM to shame and prove those jerks wrong.
My pet typically doesn’t get heals in raids, but it hardly matters. A super fast pet rez, a insta-cast hot, and some intellegent pet control and we don’t need much. Plus, my pet tends to pick up a chain heal or two from shammies so it all works out in the end. Let me tell ya though, if my pet is hurt bad, and I ask for a pet heal, I get it. My guild knows the dmg my pet puts out, and understands the benefits of FI. A lot of the time I dont even need to ask for a heal unless it is a super intense fight.
Lots of people are living in the Pre-BC misconceptions about hunters, and all it takes is showing them a BM at the top of the charts while the MMs and the rest of the DPS is way way behind.
Leave your guild ,there are other great guilds to raid with !
Since I moved from MM to the BM spec my dps went up and have been ask to re-spec to MM-SV because i can out dps the gm! CHeers and Air Power!
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alexstrasza&n=Oscer
Rukus left a site link for a hunter guide at nihilum. The guide is pretty good, but not as accurate as could be. But I’d like to make this statement to the readers of this blog. If you’re reading that site, disregard anything “tails” posted. His obviously poor understanding of the importance of hit rating is sad. He claims multiple times that crit>hit, which is absolute BS. Hit>every other stat until it’s maxed. And 2/2 animal handler is FAR superior to 5/5 Frenzy. Again, that comes down to an understanding of hit rating. With 1815ap and 29.46% crit, FI is like a permanent buff on me. 4/5 frenzy is quite sufficient after you reach this level of crit.
As a fire mage, I cannot stop loving Blessing of Salvation. I lurv it so much.
Recently, our guild has been stuck with just the one Paladin, which is incredibly sad. One pally blessing is leh sad.
Especially since I’m grouped up with people who always want Blessing of Wisdom, so I’m stuck harassing the Paladin every 10 minutes for Salv.
Oh, well, thats what macros are for
If interested, there’s a BM hunter in my guild who’s always somewhere in the top 5 damage wise, I could post a link or two over here.
@pelides
No, I meant good hunters in general, was not the intent to imply you weren’t. I find it interesting your mana consumption keeps up with that 1350 dps based on the gear you mention. I use, brilliant wizard oil, major mage’s blood, and chug mana pots early and often, and kick over to AotV a lot and I have 3/5 for T5 plus Ranger General’s chestguard with the legs from VR and boots off Solarian. I follow the Elitest Jerk shot rotation, I don’t see where your threat after an FD should be anywhere close to catching a tank in 30 seconds knowing my gear and the tanks in my guild. If you want we can use your statement “Our tanks are aggro generating monsters” to also take away this argument but proof is better than talking. Unless I’m way off the mark, the only thing I can think is you mean opening up your dps at the beginning while your tanks are building threat and not after you FD or during a lengthy boss fight. If that’s not the case, I would like to attend a raid with you or see some WWS showing your dps and then how you are so easily able to catch the MT after you feign death and before your CD is up for FD again. I think that if you’re catching your tanks on threat before your next CD is up then your OOM for half the boss fight or crit capped and every 2 or 3 out of 5 shots in your rotation crits b/c you are crit capped. I’m loosely applying my experience and knowledge of raiding here b/c we’re only starting Hyjal Summit in my guild. Feel free to email me with your screen shots or WWS or to take this discussion out of the comments for BRKs article.
@Lurker:
With 1815ap and 29.46% crit, FI is like a permanent buff on me. 4/5 frenzy is quite sufficient after you reach this level of crit.
Math, simulations, or something to back this up please?
(What is Frenzy uptime with 29.46% hunter crit with 4/5 Frenzy vs 5/5 Frenzy)
Wow, I can’t believe there are still guild leaders who are that biased. My main is a destruction warlock, though my first was a hunter.
More evidence … my guild downed Gruul last week. Top DPS? DM hunter. #2 was a DPS warrior, #3 another BM hunter. The MM hunter? #9.
Last week we downed Void Reaver for the first time. BM hunters #1 and #3 in damage done.
Last night they cleared Gruul’s lair in under 50 minutes. Top 2 in damage? Yup, BM hunters.
A capably played BM hunter is one of the highest DPS classes/specs in the game. This isn’t a fringe opinion, this is widely known and accepted by the majority of raiders. If your guild leaders cannot see the forest for the trees, you might want to look elsewhere. How do they feel about pally tanks? Tree druids? If they don’t like BM hunters, they probably don’t like those classes either.
How do the other DPS classes in your raid feel about Ferocious Inspiration? 3% extra DPS is always spiffy. We have at least one warlock spend 3 talent points just to increase Curse of Shadows from 10% to 13% shadow/arcane damage. FI is all damage, not just certain schools. I need to have 2 warlocks EACH spend 3 talent points to have an Imp Curse of Shadows and Curse of Elements. All you need is 1 BM hunter for the FI to increase the party’s damage for all schools of magic, all melee and ranged DPS. For FI alone, it is worth bringing a BM hunter.
@pelides
I also meant to add, even with a mana battery (Shadow priest) I find it hard to think your DPS doesn’t blow your mana consumption out of the water. Do you possibly stack spirit and mp5 gems?
@Bravehawk
Not to hijack the thread…. I really shouldn’t write out diatribes without enough caffeine in the bloodstream.
When I hit 1350+ in dps, it’s usually because I’m in a group with a feral druid and my crit is hovering around 36% and ferocious inspiration is up all the time. That’s the top end of what I do. Most of the time I’m in the 1100-1200 range.
@ Jabari…
Unfortuneately, I’m not so hot with the math. Tbh, my unbuffed crit is 29.46%, not my raid buffed crit %, so perhaps it’s good to make that distinction. Because, raid buffed, with kings, mudfish, agi scroll, major agi pot (i think that’s what it’s called. the green one with 24agi and 24 crit or something), motw and leader of the pack, my crit rate is damn near 40%. I believe it comes in around 38.5%
So….when I say that FI is up constantly, like a perma-buff… I’m referring to raids. And that means that perhaps 30% crit isn’t enough to justify 4/5 frenzy, I can’t be positive. Maybe it’s more like 36%, idk. But we’re basically talking about raiding, so I kind of generalized. Though, I have to admit, I’d love to see BRK post on this or give it some in depth analysis if he hasn’t done so before. I have a strong suspicion though, that 2/2 animal and 4/5 frenzy out performs the other way around regardless of crit rate. (unless it’s abysmal) since your pet doesn’t crit on misses.
i honestly don’t see what the problem is. you can argue until you’re blue in the face about specs and wws logs and whatnot, but the truth is, your spec and gear is only part of what makes your character viable in a raid, the rest is up to you. and there’s no other way to prove it but to raid with the non-believers and prove your worth. one single wws log from another player is worth crap, really, nothing at all. you have no idea what went on in the fight, how the other raid members measure up, if they had any issues during the fight etc etc.
if you can’t prove to your guildies during the actual raid that your performance is enough, you’ve got jack shit.
@Frek
If the one two punch of bigredkitty.net and elitistjerks.com can’t convince your guild that BM hunters are not only raid ready, but have the ability to be the top dps’ers in your raids… well, absolutely nothing will.
Whether or not you actually live up to that potential is another story, but BM can definitely bring the pain and most endgame guilds know this.
This evening my guild ventured into Kara and took down first 3 bosses with our more undergeared guild members to get them more geared up. I myself am about Half epic BM hunter and i was the only DPS who beat or came close to toppling our full epic rogue GM from the top of WWS. This in itself i think shows the power of a well played BM hunter.
Also on the note of healing pets; this evening my panther Heidi got some special attention from the healers and allowed us to have my pet tank DPS nuke targets. Just an example of what a BM hunter with a misdirect, intimidation, growl and healer support can do.
In 10 man raids with 3 healers a dead bm hunters pet drops the raid dps somewhere around 6-8% assuming silly stuff like that all the dps:ers/tanks have the same dps…
…anyways letting the ferocius inspiration buff die with the pet really hurts raid dps and tbh it might affect raid dps more than letting a frost mage die (mostly kidding and pixel kitties cry less than mages :P)
if elitist jerks and other top notch guilds say bm is raid viable then who are your guildies to say no. are they an endgame guild?
I am a Raid Leader for a guild currently in Hyjal and Black Temple. We have a total of 2 raiding hunters in our guild. Let me just say that an MM hunter may be nice for his own damage, but they are a complete waste in most raid setups. Unless your guild runs melee heavy (mine does not). You are often shuttled off into a party with a warlock or two, and maybe, if you are lucky, a shadow priest or a shaman. As MM you bring absolutely no synergy to a non melee party. Most guilds aregoing to run a melee group of Shaman, Rogue, Rogue, Fury, Feral. You do not fit in there. A BM hunter on the other hand is NEVER a waste. Stick them in the tank party, for 3% more dmg and voila, a higher threat cap. Stick them in the warlock party, and voila 3% more shadow damage.
To be honest, both of our hunters swapped from BM for about 2 weeks in the middle of or TK era, and it gave me headaches. Survival is nice, but it only helps the melee, as does MM. From a raid leader’s standpoint, I’d rather force my Hunters to go respec BM than have to deal with having no synergy from that spot in the raid. Every person in a raid should do something to help the raid be better than they could without them, MM and Sur dont do enough of that for everyone.
As to BRK’s last remark.. There’s only one “The F”, and that’s The Fonz.
Sorry Frek
My..my..
This is another one of those post that has turned into which is better BM or MM. These conversations tend to go on for ever. lol Some of you know exactly what you are saying and others so so. I have been raiding as an MM spec hunter for a long time and belive me if your gear is right and you have the gems enchants pots and foods, I am right there with the other main hunter in my guild who is BM. We are always competing between each other to see who can put the most out. I will admit that he gets me usually but its never by much, couple hundred points maybe, and I do think that it is b/c of my mana usage compaired to him. Is that enough for me to go BM? No the cost alone to resocket and reenchant my gear would break the bank. Can I tell you from experience that a MM hunter can hang in the top 3? you bet. In Gruul’s the other night on our WWS report (which I do b/c of BRK) the BM was top I was second followed by a rouge and a DPS worrior. I have said it before if a “hunter” knows what he is doing it doesnt matter what spec he is he will still be in the top three.
MMHunter…….
Please, it’s “rogue” and not “rouge”.
You can spec any way you want, jericho made the best point. As long as you are contributing to the raid by maximizing the talents you have selected, it shouldn’t be a debate over MM vs BM. Just…just…please remember, “a sap from a ‘rogue’ puts ‘rouge’ in your cheeks”.
Gimmlette,
I must say that if you haven’t raided your remarks are not even gonna be taken into consideration here with me. Take your pre kara gear and keep on step’n and if all you have to do is pull out typo’s you need to get another hobby. Second, I see I can see jericho’s point on what he said but then agian we have three hunters that raid with us, myself and two others. One BM as I stated, I battle with him for top DPS the other also BM usually sets around the 5 or 6th position so to say that you would rather bump the highest DPS’er that you have to put in another BM that barely hits the 5th spot good luck down’n Gruul by the time he hits lucky 13….
Danger Will Robinson! Danger…
The spelling police are watching your post!!!!
Dude BM is the way to go. I was MM but at my guilds urging respeced BM at 57. Immediately saw a huge difference. Here is the annonymous version of our WWS from SSC last night.
http://wowwebstats.com/mpse5lsxonccq
I am listed as Ganymede (actually MajHunter of Lightbringer)
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightbringer&n=Majhunter
Lapetus is a survival hunter. We didn’t have any MM hunters on this run. Very few in our guild as they have all realized that BM is the way to go and have respeced.
Our top hunter didn’t come on this raid and he makes my DPS look pathetic. MM can not keep up over the long run. They have some nice big numbers, but go OOM very quickly and have very little survivability. A single SV hunter is very usefull in a 25 man raid, but the rest should be BM.
As for the claimes that BM’s pets die alot look at my pet. Properly speced with the right resistances he only died when we wiped (feign death FTW) to Morogrim. None of the trash, Lurker, and the successful Morogrim fight could kill him.
You said you respec’d at 57 try respec’n when you are past Gruuls and all of your gear has been for MM for so long. Like I said I am not knock’n it but for me to turn around now, man it would take the whole guild bank and alot more runs just to gear me to BM. I wished I would have stayed but now just to respec to 41/20 I loose more with what I have by doing so I wouldn’t even be able to put out what I am putting out now.
Dunno
My guild has 4 main hunters…BM, MM, SV, and Hybrid (me). The BM and the MM are always at the top of the WWS. The SV hunter will pass them soon when we progress enough to get T5 and T6 gear, but is usually 8th to 10th like I am on WWS.
The MM hunter has the ability to always be on top because his gear is better that the rest, but he stresses surviving the entire fight and doing “consistent, dependable, ranged damage” until the boss is dead. We’ve all heard that before.
The hunters in my guild set aside egos for the betterment of the guild/progression. The SV hunter and I trap mobs and keep them trapped. The MM and BM hunters wear down bosses into pixelated piles of goo.
As stated before in this thread all hunter classes can do very well if played properly.
To MMHunter
Hey bro, I was refering to the writer of the letter and not to you. I understand why you dont want to respec at this point.
To Ghostkid
You are right, all hunter classes can do well when played right. And like your guild seems to know, it is about synergy.