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We Lost, But We Won

BRK » 24 March 2008 » In PvP, Screenshot »

Are you a post-Burning Crusade-only battleground player, or did you do old-school Alterac Valley? Do you remember the matches that would go on for hours? Do you remember summoning your druids and your shaman, and if you were really good, summoning your “God”? When was the last time you saw him?

We saw Lokholar on Easter Sunday!

The first strategic decision of an AV is up to the Horde. If Horde defends Iceblood Graveyard, Alliance will be crushed as they stream into the pass one at a time, as is their habit.

Alliance must group up and fight on the flag. If we kill all the Horde that are in the pass, they’ll just rez and attack us as we’re trying to take the flag. Fight on the flag FTW.

And in this particular AV, Alliance actually did just that, good job Alliance! We then took Galv and the two towers with ease. Nice, this should be a quick win.

But those rambunctious Horde defended Frostwolf. OK, when this happens, the most crucial thing for Alliance to do is to guard Iceblood Graveyard. If we lose that, we’ll be spawning at Snowfall and be practically guaranteed a loss, (unless we take Stonehearth, but that’s a different story).

Alliance shoved and pushed but couldn’t take Frostwolf Graveyard. “Go around to RH! Make them split their Defense!” we yell. We do, but as we keep our watch on IBGY, we get left alone. D@mn. Never leave IBGY minimally guarded, ever.

And of course we get ganked by three stealthers, although we manage to kill one before succumbing. “Get IBGY back now!” we scream, but nobody listens. Alliance worked so well to get it, but then just basically abandoned it. Not holding the graveyard is a horrible mistake. We lose our graveyard, Alliance Offense is destroyed, and we all end up on Defense.

Defense? Yes, it turns out the Horde made their own greedy mistake by taking an undefended Snowfall Graveyard. If the Alliance Offense had spawned there, we would’ve streamed into IBGY one at a time again, Horde Offense would’ve eventually overrun Alliance Defense, nice win for the Horde. But now you’ve got 40 angry Alliance people all on Defense. It only takes one person to screw up a perfectly good win, doesn’t it Horde.

So Alliance D and Horde O stalemate at Stormpike Graveyard. Horde is going to win because Alliance steathers refuse to go ninja the Horde’s towers and force the Horde to send ten or more people back on Defense and break up their assault. Horde rogues, on the other hand, keep flipping the Alliance bunkers, North then South, then North again. OK fine, don’t send mages to do a hunter’s job.

We run back, pop Track Stealth, and hunt down and kill three of them. BM Hunter against rogues in the bunkers, we do quite well. Snake Traps, Stoneform, our lovely PvP trinket, and Bestial Wrath cause most rogues to just Sprint away when they realize they can run and jump and go out of our Line-of-Sight, but Hobbes is going to chew them up eventually.

“THERE’S A HORDE FLYING! HOW DID HE DO THAT!”

Well there’s something we haven’t seen in a while. “That’s not a horde, it’s a Wing Rider bombing us in our own bunker. Ranged DPS, gather at the north bunker, let’s nuke it!” And nuke it we did, burning it down in about one minute. Two hunters, two mages, and a warlock can put out 150,000 damage pretty quickly nowadays.

But while Alliance was being kept busy at both SPGY and our own bunkers, those smart Horde summoned Lokhalar The Ice Lord. Nice work, that’s a guaranteed win.

Someone else who has played the game gets everybody’s crystals and medals and turns them in, and our druids are summoned. A little late, but what the heck.

What, you’ve never seen The Ice Lord? Well here ya go!

lcelord.jpg

The Ice Lord cometh, yes? “JUST KILL IT!” we bellow, and Alliance proceeds to do just that. Alliance engaged the Ice Lord at the bottom of the hill leading to SPGY, and by the time it reached the top, we burned that piece of shitte into the ground.

icelorddeath.jpg

Want to know why we killed it so quickly? Aside from our massive DPS, the Horde didn’t heal him! Perhaps they didn’t know they could. If the Alliance hadn’t seen one, it would be safe to assume the Horde weren’t 100% up-to-speed on how to use the guy.

Well, we would lose this battle in 57 minutes. That’s an f-ing long Alterac Valley, especially when we’re accustomed to winning in under 15 minutes. But killing that “god” was tremendous fun and something we’ve never done before. And perhaps this seems to indicate that, with the current firepower each side is capable of producing, summoning Ivus or Lokhalar isn’t worth the trouble anymore.

Although we need to add a new Ivus-pic to our collection soon.

PvP, Screenshot | March 24, 2008

Comments

26 Responses to “We Lost, But We Won”

  1. Taradin on March 24th, 2008 11:14 am

    Nice crit sequence when you got OOM… :P

  2. Shutter on March 24th, 2008 11:23 am

    Ivus always required some management. Back when I was 60 for the last month or two of non-crossserver bgs, the hordies on our server settled on a winning strategy of turtling IBGY for about 10m, then summoning Ivus and use him to grind through to Van. If the offense didn’t break through in time you had to use the time honored strategy of kiting him to Vann before he got too big.

    When he’s still small(-ish), Vann chews him up and spits him out, it’s only after he’s slaughtered alliance for 20m and stands four taurens tall that he gets really nasty. The worst thing a hordie ever sees is Ivus locking on to some pesky mounted alliance who hightails it back to DB before Ivus can kill him.

  3. pelides on March 24th, 2008 11:25 am

    Oh how I miss the old days of AV. I don’t miss the wait times for sure, but the sheer epic scale of those fights. Where you could walk out of there with 2k honor kills… when the Field of Strife was named that for a reason! Summoning the druid and the bomber… you were lucky if you ever even got into Frostwolf.

    It was massive world pvp crammed into this one valley… and epics dropped form some of the mobs.

    Damn! I feel like a a crusty old codger now.

    Now who feels like raiding Tarren Mill? kkgo!

  4. David on March 24th, 2008 11:32 am

    Hey do you have the fullsized version of that AV thumbnail pic?

  5. Lotos/Smoke on March 24th, 2008 11:34 am

    Ah, old-school AV…6-hour, single-server matches that just keep going and going and going…those were good times…

  6. Vanidar on March 24th, 2008 11:42 am

    I really miss those AV’s. I was around from before BG’s were just a gleam in the Dev’s eyes and remember the old TM/South Shore battles as well.

    When AV first opened it was epic in every sense of the word. That first weekend it was opened we would have some games that would last 16 hours or more on Argent Dawn. And let me tell you both sides fought tooth and nail for every square inch of real estate on that map. Lots more NPC’s (which I always thought was a good thing), Land mines in both Bases ( Who remembers those nasty things?), Ram Riders/Wolf Riders, and battles that would go back and forth with one side winning for a while then the other would push to the enemies last GY and so on.

    2 K HK’s in one sitting? Over 16 hours you could rack up in excess of 10K kills. 15 K of my kills was from one AV BG.

    Todays players just don’t want to be bothered with battles anymore, they just want their honor quick as possible and that’s that. It’s a shame really. Those old AV’s were truly something and people really are missing out.

  7. Ratshag on March 24th, 2008 11:59 am

    Is very hard fer us what be too young to have played in the “good old days” to learn all the complexifications of AV. How would we, when games is normally done in 20 minutes or less? From our elders we can learn “defend Gal and IBGY, hold a bunker ’til it caps, don’t cap Snowfall ya moron, now All In!” and that’s about it. Soldier’s blood? Armor scraps? and what’s up with all these wolves and rams? The purpose of the mines is kinda clear, but Mulverick and Ichman tend to appear for no apparent reason. One time me teammates started chanting “Summon the Ice Lord! Summon the Ice Lord!” but I were in the wrong area and never get to see him or what he did.

  8. For the Pie on March 24th, 2008 12:55 pm

    I really think with the new expansion, they need to release two more battlegrounds. A battle royal time limit game where you kill and kill and kill. E-peen for the win in this battleground.

    Another battleground needs to have flying mounts of some sort. For example, like Halaa, you mount and destroy some guards with bombs and then fight on the ground to take the base.

    Then they need to move AV back to a longer battleground. Say 1 hour min game. Make it so to win you have to summon your god. Make it so you have to have all the towers destroyed before you can even get in the boss tower. something.

    I want epic PvP battles not ride by real fast kinda battles.

  9. Nick on March 24th, 2008 1:03 pm

    “like Halaa, you mount and destroy some guards with bombs”

    i love halaa battles - give us worthwhile rewards for winning halaa when 70. it’s a heck of a lot of fun to have a mixed group of 64-70s flapping around frantically trying to get battle tokens.

    i’ll have my dark war talbuk, just you watch…

  10. Domovoi & ArtemisFowl on March 24th, 2008 1:03 pm

    I remember the good days of AV when the wolf riders unleashed hell a few times.. When ice lords screams of rage inspired terror (until a lone hunter kited him to Vann /sigh.) When people defending our faithful general had to deal with the alliance bombers, When 10+ shamans sat on the roof above the doorway from the large building at the base of the ramp leading up to the general’s common and fired chain lightnings down into the room via any idiot daring to edge out.

    I also remember falling asleep at the keys, waking up the next morning and entering the same AV, and little to no progress had been made. Good times.

  11. Doug on March 24th, 2008 1:59 pm

    Here’s an AV strat for you BRK:

    #1 SF GY - this is your contingency plan, get 2-3 others to help you, coordinating burst, and watching the flag is essential here. The initial zerg of IBGY/Galv will likely fail because of disorganization. When that happens get ready to spam “OFFENCE TO SF GY” because horde will be up in your grill in no time. As always: Control the GYs = Win the Game.

    #2 Reorganize - if you can successfully get SF GY, it can be the staging point for your next zerg (horde will likely be busy with Balinda, sitting on a GY or 2, and waiting for 2 towers to cap). Wait until you get enough people (15+) to run straight for IB GY (need at least 3 to stay at SF) 9 to KoS anything in the area, and 6 on the flag (yes 6, because you eliminate an AoE fear from resetting all of your flag ppl) Keep at least 10 people on Defence at SP GY/Bunkers.

    #3 Sit and wait - you will need 5-10 people to sit at IB GY so the horde doesnt just steamroll you and recap. This time should be used to coordinate your next move (Tank+Heals needed for Galv, group up @ IB GY) At this point you can get 1-3 people to cap IB tower and tower point, to apply pressure.

    #4 Follow Horde - think of this as special ops team. It consists of about 5 people (hopefully well geared, with a healer or two, a 5v5 arena team works EXTREMELY well here) to recap towers and GYs behind the Horde offensive front. This should be a mobile unit with the DBM battleground mod so that they are aware on the time remaining for caps. This group isn’t meant to be defensive, purely offensive with only the goal of forcing the opponents to heavily defend (force them to have 3+ at every node on the clock if they want a shot at actually capping) greatly cutting the number of people that they have reducing your reinforcements.

    #5 Galv - when 3 is completed Galv dies. If you go too soon and wipe without BOTH SF & IB chances are that the horde will recap one (or both if they’re left undefended) while your attention is elsewhere.

    #6 Final Zerg - Push FW GY (or if there’s alot of resistance go straight for the Relief Hut first) This forces Horde Defence to waste time running to you (and reduces the #s that they will come at you with) Again, wait out the GY cap, and call for tanks/healers so you can quickly dispose of horde’s General, as it may come down to a race to the end.

    Is this an epic battle like the AV of old? No, but it sure is fun to see what horde does when the entire map turns blue :)

    The idea behind this is a complete victory, or at the worst a decent amount of honor. This is comming from a Horde perspective, and consists of a combonation of things that I have seen the alliance do with varying degrees of success in different matches, but they were unable to simultaneously combine them all. Remember: The aggressor makes the rules. Force your opponents to respond, be ready when they do, and victory is yours.

  12. dorgol on March 24th, 2008 2:29 pm

    “#4 Follow Horde”

    I’ve done this on my Paladin a few times. Give me a solid warrior / rogue / hunter, and we can take out 4 or 5 Horde… :)

  13. Kestrel on March 24th, 2008 3:37 pm

    Vanidar said, “Todays players just don’t want to be bothered with battles anymore, they just want their honor quick as possible and that’s that. It’s a shame really.

    Too true, unfortunately. I’m one of those who fights as hard as I can to the (usually) bitter end. I don’t care if I only get 37 honor and a single mark for a 40-minute battle. For someone who absolutely abhored PvP until 6 weeks ago, Battlegrounds are my new playground. After matching wits (because my gear sure doesn’t match up to many of my opponents) with real people, PvE is easy-mode.

    Not saying I don’t enjoy (in fact I still prefer) PvE, but for me in BGs, the battle’s the thing. Honor and marks are secondary. I want Alliance to win, and then I want to beat my immediate opponent(s).

    If you are QQing about how long a fight is taking that you’re there only for the marks, then GTFO. It’s easy: “/afk” will do the trick. Use that 15 minutes to get some fresh air.

  14. @ Doug on March 24th, 2008 3:39 pm

    “#1 SF GY - this is your contingency plan, get 2-3 others to help you, coordinating burst, and watching the flag is essential here. The initial zerg of IBGY/Galv will likely fail because of disorganization. When that happens get ready to spam “OFFENCE TO SF GY” because horde will be up in your grill in no time. As always: Control the GYs = Win the Game.

    #2 Reorganize - if you can successfully get SF GY…. ”

    SF GY? Horde never tries to take SF with a concerted attack. It’s generally the lone moron who tries to take it. I’m not really sure any of that is relevant to AV’s these days.

  15. pelides on March 24th, 2008 4:22 pm

    Holy crap! ArtemisFowl?!?!?!?!?!?! Wow! That’s a name I haven’t seen in quite some time!

  16. Harthin on March 24th, 2008 6:30 pm

    I’m horde side and in my battlegroup we get creamed by Alliance most of the time. They zerg to Galv and down him easily if we don’t put 10-15 in the room with him. Then they zerg to RH and cap that.

    Then work their way back and cap the rest of the towers, or 5-10 people stay behind and camp IB and TP.

    Usually alliance has capped both towers and RH before we get SPGY or any of the DB towers.

  17. Swagger on March 24th, 2008 6:53 pm

    Horde to the bone. I was there for the 20+ hour fights. Not kidding, youngsters, the BRK poll is quite accurate. At times we did sleep through half a game only to come straight into the very same game some eight hours later. Once on caffeine and cough syrup I played through an eleven hour straight game. No BS. Summonings, riders, big ol’ blodletter. Serious business coming out with some 3-4k honor kills in one single game.

    Of course now I only play premades. Preform AV Enabler is the best thing since joined Battle Groups. I can’t stand pugs since a lot of stupid idiots have tainted my beautiful horde as of late. They play the alliance game of zerging but not half as well. Luckily for me though, horde CRUSHES in my server and pair that with premades and I haven’t lost an AV in ages. In fact even if I were to buy and use potions in every damn fight I would still end up with a couple hundred marks lost every week.

    I miss the old epic days but I would be a liar if I said I don’t enjoy ultra fast wins and superior honor farming.

    FOR the HORDE! ;)

  18. Swagger on March 24th, 2008 7:01 pm

    PS

    Since I’ve lead countless premades over the past weeks I’ll give ya’ll the basic strategy:

    Grp 1-2 Balinda -> DB
    Grp 3 Balinda -> IwB -> DB
    Grp 4-5 Defend Galv + IB + Towers
    Grp 6 ShB -> Defense
    Grp 7-8 Stealth. SP + DB.

    Never take SHGY. Never kill Vann before all towers and bunkers are ours.

    Best win 8 mins with only two horde players dead, ending in 598 vs 0.

    “Honor for nothing and the kills for free…” ;)

  19. Kluena & Cole on March 24th, 2008 7:06 pm

    20+ hours? that’s it? I’ve played on Destromath for quite a long time and before x-server and battle groups I remember AVs consistently going for 3 days before one side or the other won. The longest I’ve personally seen an AV go for is 11 days. Yes, that’s right, eleven days. O.o

  20. Kemonojin on March 25th, 2008 6:12 am

    I never had 11 days, but I’ve woke up, played for two or three hours, gone to work for 12, come home, took a couple hour nap, gotten back in and got into the same battle… THAT was when it was fun. Now it’s the same fight every time. ‘Ignore everything and run to the end’.

  21. graydeath on March 25th, 2008 8:17 am

    Any idea why there are so few healers in a av?

  22. Beaker on March 25th, 2008 8:54 am

    Alliance in the Vinidication battlegroup, EU. We get creamed by Horde in every bg. Our only hope of winning an AB, WSG or EotS is a premade….unless its a horde premade we are up against, in which case we might as well lie down and let them walk over us to victory

    AV is the worst. Alliance never win. ever.

    Always the same we either Zerg galv, IB GY or FW GY (worst.tactic. ever) only to be beaten back by half as many hordies. Then we res at stormpike or dun balder only to see the enemy pouring towards the bridge ending any hopes of a come back.

    We go for a tower, twice the number of horde show up to take it back. And so on, etc, etc.

    Its unreal how bad alliance suck in our battlegroup. We zerg, we fail, we spend the next 40 mins bitching at each other while our reinforcements slowly melt away.

    Sometimes I dream about rolling a hordue just to win some for a change.

    sigh….

  23. Doug on March 25th, 2008 9:12 am

    @ @Doug

    As Horde, I ALWAYS go for SF GY 1st.
    Why? Because an alliance offence without enough healers and a forward graveyard always fails. If the allies get SF GY, it literally cuts the time they spend running across the map (through the horde offence that cuts most of them down as they ride past) in half. At that point they can basically rez and hit IBGY/Galv at their leisure, requiring the horde to actually put an effort into defending.

    The Horde strat is easy, Destroy the initial zerg, turn the map red, kill off the stragglers, Kill Bal, switch to 80% offence 20% defence, AoE down the alliance defence, have a few recall to our base if someone ninjas a tower/GY, cap SP GY/SP Aid when there’s no allies left to kill, maybe even kill Van before the alliance reinforcements reach 0.

    It literally takes all of the stuff I posted in the alliance strat above to beat this when the Horde is able to crush the initial alliance zerg.

    I roll on stormstrike battle group, where horde dominated AV to the point where the alliance gave up and mostly stopped queueing (2hr queues ftl). I have a 90% (most of the losses were against an alliance premade of 30+ players, and horde QQed about it and gave up, as is their usual method of fighting a premade) win record in AV since they made the changes, and yes I do sit in the queue (go do daily quests/farm) to get in at least 1 AV per day.

    @ graydeath, there are so few healers in AV because ALMOST NONE of the DPS classes bother to help the healers out by CCing a rogue/druid that jumps the healer. They are too concerned about pewpew, and dont pay attention to what’s going on around them. The point is *know where your healers are, and be sure to stay in range/los when you need a heal* and help them out. I can almost guarantee that you will live longer if you do whatever you can for your healers. Tunnel vision and stupidity seems to govern the actions of the people who PVP for purps.

  24. @doug on March 25th, 2008 10:10 am

    Playing in AV as an undear-geared healer is much more preferable than playing in any other BG. AV is like a PvE race. There’s very little actual PvP as compared to the other BGs …

    When I play AV on my completely PvE geared healers (8k health, 0 resil) I die a whole heck of a lot less than when I do other battlegrounds. You simply get attacked a lot less by Alliance in AV.

    Actually maybe that’s why healers do it less (though tbh I haven’t noticed that at all) - they already have their fill of PvE healing in raiding … why would they want to do it while they PvP too?

  25. Zball on March 25th, 2008 10:42 pm

    The most fun I’ve had in AV recently is because I lag behind the initial rush as I close in the Field of Strife. From there I can tell if there’s a turtle or zerg. I’ve started running up to cap SFGY and turning around to take out those few who decide to kill my beloved Balinda.

    I ended up trapping a warlock immediately, Viper Sting and Silence on the healer and Scatter Shot the tank. Yeah, I bought it without killing a single one of them. Rez, run back to a bunch of skeletons. I spent practically the entire match running between Balinda and SHGY while the rest of the Offense burned through the IBGY turtle. I think Horde picked up 20- something honor that match.

  26. Luketheduke on March 27th, 2008 9:38 am

    I started about two years and a couple months ago, and spent many a hour in AV with my first character, an ally lock (and even MORE time waiting to join the BG). I miss the good old days of AV, and yet I like the new ones too. I rolled Horde simply because of BG wait times on Ally side, pre-TBC and pre-Xrealm. I haven’t gone back since.

    Since TBC I haven’t seen the Ice Lord but once. And I have played it countless times since TBC started, on numerous characters. Kind of sad, but by the time you start to summon him, Drek is already dead.

    I really don’t mind the “long” 40 minute games, and we lose every time. But it makes me mad when some noob taps a GY and suddenly we have to fight 40 Alliance to cross the bridge. Not the time factor, just the bitterness of seeing a victory slip through your hands! It seems whenever we win it is on resources, not by killing vandaar. Hopefully that will change in the next patch!