Hunter Raiding Talents - Why Marksman Stinks
OK boys and girls, let’s talk a little Raid Synergy. Why the heck should your raid take you before taking a rogue or a mage? What are you bringing to the table, hmm? What’s in your picnic basket?
If you’re a Beastmaster hunter, you’re bringing Ferocious Inspiration.
Pros:
It scales. As your raid’s DPS increases, the extra 3% damage scales.
It affects physical, both melee and ranged, and spell damage.
It stacks. Put two BM hunters in the same party and that’s a 6% bonus to damage for everybody in the party.
Cons:
It only affects the hunter’s party, not the entire raid.
The hunter has to keep his pet alive and cannot focus exclusively on his own DPS.
The hunter has to keep his pet engaged in doing damage. Fights that are pet-unfriendly are terrible for BM hunters as not only does FI not proc, but 35-40% of the hunter’s DPS is lost with the pet sitting on the sideline.
Jumping over to the Survival tree, this guy has Expose Weakness in his arsenal.
Pros:
It affects the entire raid, not just the hunter’s party.
It scales. As the hunter’s agility increases, EW gets more powerful.
Cons:
It is only beneficial to physical DPS, not spells.
It is very gear-dependent. A hunter with low agility will not provide much in the way of an EW bonus to the raid.
And finally, the Marksman tree brings us the old, reliable Trueshot Aura.
Pros:
It’s an aura and therefore it’s always on and benefiting the hunter’s party.
It is not gear-dependent.
Cons:
It only affects the hunter’s party, not the entire raid.
It does not scale. A MM hunter who just dinged 70 will provide the same TSA-bonus as a MM hunter in full Tier 6.
It is only beneficial to physical DPS, not spells.
BM versus MM and SV
If you have the skills to keep your pet alive in just about every raid encounter, if you’re willing to micro-manage your pet and use a good chunk of mana to keep him alive instead of contributing to your own auto/steady rotation, then roll BM. Have your raid leader lump you in with your raid’s highest-DPS casters and thwackers. This is where your 3% bonus to all damage is best used; when it’s scaled.
If pet-management just isn’t your thing, or your guild already has 120 BM hunters, then you should consider one of the other two trees.
SV versus MM
Since MM provides a fixed 125 AP bonus to all physical DPS, the SV hunter has to be able to have EW provide at least 125 AP. Since EW provides 25% of the hunter’s agility as a bonus to the raid’s DPS, the EW hunter needs 500 agility to equal the MM hunter, (500 * 0.25 = 125). But since TSA is always on and EW requires a crit to proc, we go a little further and recite the standard rule, “Until you have 600 agility, don’t go SV.”
But that’s not the entire story. The MM hunter’s TSA is applied to his party, the SV hunter’s EW is applied to the entire raid.
If the SV hunter has less than 600 agility and provides less than a TSA’s 125 AP EW bonus, but applies his bonus over an entire 25-person raid, he could be contributing more to the raid’s DPS than a MM hunter who is only buffing his party’s DPS, (this would depend on the raid makeup, of course.)
Is your guild physical-DPS heavy and spell-DPS light? Don’t be scared to go SV if your agility is less than 600, especially if you’re starting 25-man raid content.
If you are starting 10-man raids and you have an almost all-physical DPS party every week, MM might be a better raiding spec for you. But as your gear improves, your raid-enhancement is not going to change. That’s the inherent limitation of the MM spec for raiding.
Now if you do choose the SV tree, you must remember two things:
1. Your entire focus is on Agility. Crit will come with Agility, so don’t use +Crit gems. RAP doesn’t contribute to EW either, so none of those AP gems or enchants. You are Captain Agility. Crank it up and let the EW-goodness fly.
2. Your purpose in the raid is to enhance the rogues, feral-cat druids, enhancement shaman, ret pallies, arms/fury warriors, and holy priests who like to stab things with their daggers. Your DPS will almost always be lower than the BM hunters in your raid. If you’re a BM hunter who respecs SV, be prepared to be astonished and depressed when your personal DPS drops from top-3 to bottom-5 of the damage-meters.
And if you choose the MM tree, you must remember one thing:
1. You’re raid-talent is weak and going to be chosen only if there’s a spot in the raid they cannot fill with anything else. Or they’re ill-informed. Or you’ve got something to blackmail the raid leader into inviting you.
BRK’s Recommendation to Blizz to Fix the MM Tree
Easy. Make Trueshot Aura scale with RAP. Can you imaging a MM hunter with 2300 RAP and a TSA bonus that converts 25% of that RAP to an AP bonus to all members of the hunter’s party?
So sayeth BRK, so let it be done.
Doogie2K on 27 Apr 2008 at 1:58 pm #
25% would be wildly overpowered, because in that example, that would be 575 AP at all times. Even the two-minute Warrior shout (and how I wish it was longer) doesn’t go that high. Even 10% might be a bit out of line, given the huge numbers that MMs can put up in the RAP department (5% is too small — 7%?), but I do agree with the sentiment. TSA is the only one of the three that doesn’t scale, and it should.
For the Pie on 27 Apr 2008 at 2:06 pm #
One thing to remember (and I am sure Guy and Shifttusk can bring more info) that as you move up in progression, the delta between the BM hunter damage and the SV hunter damage (personal +pet) narrows.
When I switched from BM to SV in T4/T5 content I dropped about 250-300 DPS. Some of that is learning the shot “rotation” and swapping some gear. Some of that is, OMG all other hunters fire so slow.
Once you learn the fight and how to manage your pet, (yes there are unfriendly pet fights but those are becoming less and less I think) you just need to learn the shot “rotation” and as a BM hunter the dps is gear related pretty much. But you get to your top end faster.
As SV hunter, you need tons of gear and then you need to know what gear is better, I don’t think agility is all you need to worry about, at some point agility stacking has gimped your dps too much. You almost get to a point where hunter trapping isn’t as necessary in the fights, depending on raid makeup. The raid may see a great advantage to EW bonus.
Be prepared to look at haste and crit and Agility and lots of theorycrafting. I think BRK has made the BM hunter theorycrafting pretty succinct and easy to understand. SV theorycrafting takes some time to digest, because you might even need to come up with more than one “set” for different raid setups and fights.
Learn what your playstyle is and play that type of hunter. Trust me, being forced into one role or the other or the third is no fun and you will start to hate raiding.
Feist on 27 Apr 2008 at 3:45 pm #
You forget the one other reason to bring a marksman hunter:
Because with the right, very high end gear, marksman hunters can put out absolutely batshit insane high personal DPS.
Trackhoof on 27 Apr 2008 at 3:45 pm #
I agree with Pie. In a broader sense, you do want to stack as much agility as possible, but you also want to balance it out.
In terms of the raid buff, BRK is totally right. You want Agility pouring out of your ears. Thing is, Expose Weakness procs off crits. Figure out the nice balance between Amount of AP (as it’s a flat 25% of your Agility) and your Crit Percentage, and where you can trade off one to increase the other. And then you want to look into haste, shot rotations, et cetera, just like Pie said.
Just as one last thing - don’t rule out MM because of the lack of raid buff, or pick a BM hunter over an MM hunter because of it. Pay attention to their skills first, and THEN weigh them on spec.
People get anal about percentage points, and yes, they add up - but don’t forget the human element.
Trackhoof on 27 Apr 2008 at 3:46 pm #
Also, what Feist said.
Maevet on 27 Apr 2008 at 6:15 pm #
*or you can pump out damn good dps to off set having a non-scaling talent.
*or your guild doesn’t min/max the fun out of things..(beyond advising people with ink-blot-test looking specs, I don’t care for telling people to spec XYZ for reason ABC..)
Fearstalker on 27 Apr 2008 at 6:52 pm #
ok, this is all good for raiders, pick your thing and go with it, but what about for solo/questers/casuals/BGers who might pug one day, and be doing 3 hours of dailies the next, and grinding clefthoof for an hour the next?..
I don’t see Surv as great for solo, BM is if course very good, but with the new aggro mechanic, I’m wondering about MM with some more AP gear?.. (will MM have better pet aggro for farming?)
some of you will say, of course, that it doesn’t matter, but what about doing the best we can?..
Kendry327 on 27 Apr 2008 at 7:22 pm #
“Make Trueshot Aura scale with RAP. Can you imaging a MM hunter with 2300 RAP and a TSA bonus that converts 25% of that RAP to an AP bonus to all members of the hunter’s party?”
——————————–
TSA has always been a lackluster talent, it’s always been a weak 31pt talent ability and it’s always been looked down on by some people; it really needs some love and attention :s But 25% of the Hunter’s RAP is definitely waaaaay over the top, it’s definitely going to stir up drama and whines in PvP for instance. I’d say 5%-10% should be more than enough, as a MM hunter’s RAP tends to scale quite nicely already. Just my two cents.
Nick S. on 27 Apr 2008 at 7:33 pm #
one note in favor of MM - players new to the Hunter class tend to do pretty well with this spec, in my experience. bad pet management and shot rotations don’t hurt quite as bad as they might for a BM or SV hunter.
i still wouldn’t pick it for a raid spec, though. doing things badly in a progression raid setting is never OK in my book.
kyle on 27 Apr 2008 at 7:52 pm #
Maybe I was doing something just right on my MM hunter in kara, because I always came in 2nd or 3rd in dps (had a SSC-level rogue taking 1st). Taking a break from wow right now but I’m going Surv when i get back in
Nick S. on 27 Apr 2008 at 8:22 pm #
@kyle
individual MM dps is good. their raid buffs suck, that’s the point.
Blakmagik on 27 Apr 2008 at 8:25 pm #
i love ur website…but dont hate on MM FOO!!! lol
i love MM and i have to say i put many of my bm friends to shame
Lomion on 27 Apr 2008 at 11:12 pm #
Improved Hunter’s Mark. Yes, Trueshot Aura adds 125 AP to the hunter’s party only, but Improved Hunter’s Mark can add up to 440 AP to the entire raid’s physical dps. Drop me in a group with the rogues on a boss fight and they are getting 565 AP each, just from me. Admittedly, on trash pulls it’s not as good because you should never be getting off that many shots on trash, but it still starts at 110 AP bonus for the raid.
One other point, while BM is the best DPS build on paper, I think playing a build that compliments your personal play style will bring about more overall DPS regardless.
Kerrigor on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:02 am #
@ Lomion
While that may be true, Imp Mark is an upper-tier talent in a tree any hunter concerned with DPS takes at least 20 points in… any hunter can make the same boast. So I’m slightly confused about the point you’re trying to make.
MM can be raid viable, yes… but as a buff spec? Nyet, sir. Nyet.
Maurie on 28 Apr 2008 at 1:38 am #
I play a raiding MM Hunter and am regualrly in the top of the guild dps charts. My guild has a lot of caster dps and Expose Weakness might not be as useful as a MM power hitter. I may not buff the guild, but I burn through adds, Scattershot chain trap, and Silencing Shot when there isnt a rogue around to make that kick. Oh yeah, and if my pet dies, I dont lose 30% of my dps like some builds I could mention.
Bastiaan on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:17 am #
@Lomion: Improved Hunter’s Mark only applies the BASE attack power of your Hunter’s Mark to melee attack power. That means the bonus will be 110 AP, no matter how often the target is hit. 440 AP is only for ranged attacks.
Corwin on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:06 am #
actually there are very few encounters where maxed out dps is needed, most of them are about learning how to avoid incoming damage and do some dps in meantime, sv/bm/mm/whatever, since those encounters can be beat with 20k raid dps as well as with 11k, play what you like until the fights where scaling is a musthave, respec or get replaced for the good of the raid, if you don’t understand that, do everyone a favor - quit raiding - you’re a selfcentered, greedy LW(lootwh…) and guild drama will be inevitable in near future
and typical 25man raid setup atm rarely has more than 2 spots available for any dps class (any talent build), and when you look at hunters, they already have 2 builds that _work_ in raids, please, don’t beg for MM becoming 3rd, there are other classes that need buffing in their current raid setups more than you do and want to earn that 1 spot out of 25
Corwin on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:12 am #
Maurie, you’re clearly not there in endgame stuff, since those raids don’t work without 2-3 rogues, and you loose more than 30% of your dps when you run oom and have to pop viper just to keep steady shot up from time to time
Nick S. on 28 Apr 2008 at 6:21 am #
i’m pretty much with corwin, but there are definitely times when every drop of DPS makes the fight easier. any boss with phases based on health %, for example Prince, or any boss with phase cycles that introduce difficult phases according to a fixed time schedule - Lurker Below.
we killed Leo less than 7 seconds before the enrage timer tonight… i’d say we needed all of our DPS.
Felandra on 28 Apr 2008 at 8:33 am #
BM Hunters shouldn’t lose 30% DPS when the pet dies… They revive the pet and send it back in, or hold it back for nasty AoE. So the BM Hunter loses some DPS, while most Surv and MM lose their 15% for GOOD when they pet dies (as many don’t bother to revive it). And yes, MM and Surv pets should do upwards of 15% of the damage if managed correctly.
beaker on 28 Apr 2008 at 9:04 am #
I recently respecced survival, 764 agility unbuffed (900 + buffed) and have dropped from 1 or 2 on the damage meters to 7-8. Also i havent developed confidence in my weaker pet now and find myself less likely to send old Snuggles (ravager) charging in. So not only has my damaged dropped by about 30%, but my pet damage is missing too sometimes.
I only hope that the EW buff is worth it. we normally run with 2-3 rogues, 1-2 other melee dps, and 3-4 hunters. What do you guys reckon… is there a limit on the number of pysical dps in a raid group to make EW viable for the sacrifice of your own dps?
Corwin on 28 Apr 2008 at 9:13 am #
Nick, some reasons why you were that close to enrage timer:
* too many melee dps in raid (very melee unfriendly encounter)
* melee dps isn’t familiar with the fight (hell I, hitcapped kitty with buffed 45ish% crit and ~3400 AP at that time, did 300-400dps first couple times in that fight, 700+ later with almost the same gear)
* raid lost too many dpsers because of whirlwinds
* raid has problems with aggro table resets between phases - too much dps downtime
it gets a lot easier on 3rd, 4th etc kills, when ppl get comfortable with the fight, if it doesn’t, start logging combat and analize with wowwebstats to figure out who’s slacking
Guy on 28 Apr 2008 at 9:29 am #
First,
WB TRACK!
Second: SV > ALL
Third: Where’s the comparison between EW raid wide and FI party wide? Who’s your raid buffing god now?!!?
I believe each spec has it’s place, it’s scalability. MM was proving well to do in arenas due to itemization, and the encounter being friendly to 5 man mechanics. And I know at least one MM hunter doing MH and BT who can hold her own on the damage meter.
BM got the shaft for years so it’s nice to see them get some love. MM dominated for years, so while they need a buff now I don’t mind seeing them wait.
Wotlk will make us SV spec hunters OP, I can’t wait to see all you flavor of the month people try to play it though.
FTP is right though, it’s DPS can’t be spreadsheeted very well. So it will be awhile before people understand our power.
I’m not afraid of being 4th or 5th in damage if all the players above me are melee DPS. Then I’m bringing a ton more utility to my raid than the kitty lovers spec and as long as I keep it close, some decent DPS as well.
Deadrabit on 28 Apr 2008 at 9:31 am #
am I miss reading this, but a good chunk of you are talking about end game content as professional job. and applicants need apply.
I guess it depends as to why you “Play the Game”
I personly play to game to have a good time. The people I play with matter much more to me then what toons they brought along. It’s about the story’s we get to recount the adventures we had. the jokes we can tell and laugh at.
sure my guild is still stuck near the end of Kara. It has more to do with trying to get 10 casual player who are spread all over the place (east coast, west coast and down under) at the same time to raid.
We need only to down prince. we have encountered him 3 times. The first time we had the wrong makeup there (same people different toons) the other times have been unlucky placement of the infernals and just plain too tired to play at 3 AM
I am hoping that BRK was not trying to beat down on the MM spec and being petty. like it came across to me.
it’s more then DPS. if DPS was the only thing you can program some macro’s to do the job. MM is more then just DPS we have the silent shot. That can save the party/raid becuase the boss was about to do something now it can’t for 3 seconds/minute.
I know not all bosses, and the father into end game content the less revelent that skill is but it is still usefull to the raid.
Yes he was talking about buff’s but a raid is more then just a group of buff’s
Ungelosh on 28 Apr 2008 at 9:31 am #
Question: When someone Says 600 agi unbuffed in reference to survival is that with or without lightning reflexes? I can never figure it out.
Hoder on 28 Apr 2008 at 9:59 am #
I’ll ask you this though BRK and other BM folks….if you were the tank, would you rather have my MM-specc’d self throwing MDs your way, or a BM hunter who hits really, really fast, but not nearly as hard as I do?
Sicne we are tlaking about raids I found the fact that this was nto considered at all to be sad.
I certainly will not argue that TSA needs a serious buff, but in my guild we raid with 3 hunters, one of each, and personal DPS aside we have found that to be the best raid-wide. I am not doing math to back it up, but we “feel” it works best for us….
that, and I love being Marks, have never been passed on for a raid, and well, it is my 15 right? Sure, it is their $360 a month, but I really don’t think the 3% is going to wipe us any more or less than we do now. However, if and when it becomes necessary to have a secodn BM, or replacement, hunter, I’m happy to do what needs to be done for my guild, and in the end, that is what matters.
Felandra on 28 Apr 2008 at 10:11 am #
If you want to talk MD, then Surv beats anything and everyone hands down. Doesn’t hit as hard as MM, but with Readiness you can boost the tank for a lot of initial threat. So if you are MM for MD, I suggest Surv.
But MD is more of a help rather than anything else. On fights like Leo it matters little how hard the shots hits, just they they do. And most of the time the difference between two BM and one Surv MDing and one of each doing it is marginal at best.
So yes MM does provide a bit more for MD than BM, but not enough to consider it important.
Oh and Deadrabit
“If you are starting 10-man raids and you have an almost all-physical DPS party every week, MM might be a better raiding spec for you.”
He specifically targeted your progression and said MM was fine. I see no beating down MM in 10-mans.
Bob the goat on 28 Apr 2008 at 10:44 am #
I am a hunter that leveled to 60 MM, raided MC as MM, leveled to 70 MM, started Kara MM, then switched to BM, and now tops the DPS charts in Kara
There is defiantly a time and place for MM and SV, but they are more specialized tools based on the situation and raid makeup. When those tools are applicable then they can be much better than BM. In VERY general terms, in PVE, there are more situations where BM is a better spec than MM or SV.
Honestly, 90% of what a hunter is capable of is not dependant on gear or spec. A very poorly geared SV hunter that is very talented will out DPS a well geared BM hunter that does not know how to maximize their DPS. All of this discussion makes one very long stretch of an assumption, that the player is CAPABLE of maximizing their DPS. Do they remember to turn off Growl. Do they know when to send in their pet, and when not to. Do they know when to hold back on DPS or when to go all out. Do they know where and when and which traps to drop. All of these factors play VERY large part in how much DPS a person can generate.
As for someone’s comment about tanks preferring MM because they give bigger Misdirects, that is a little short sighted. Your misdirect may throw a few hundred points extra threat on the tank, but my threat has two advantages. 1) It is spread over two values on the Threat Meter, mine and my pets. We both can DPS harder and never take aggro. 2) It is much more steady rather than burst. I climb slowly up the threat meter, I don’t take big jumps. The tank and I can see my increase in threat coming and do something about it.
For the Pie on 28 Apr 2008 at 10:57 am #
5-6 on the damage meters? Guy? :p
Raid wide yeah, fight dependent. Friday night’s one shot of Hydross (oh I loves me that fight) I was number 2 on the charts with a rogue number one. Guess who got a boost to damage from me?
Being survival requires you to remember your epeen isn’t as big. Some fights you will rock and some fights not so much, but the same can be said for BM.
Tonight is Leo and Lady Vashj. I did both the last time as BM, be interesting to see how different it is.
Your guild needs to go into a change like that knowing that the hunter will see a dps drop, but that the melee heavy raid folks will see a big increase.
Now if I could get them to give me a feral druid all the time.
Tirth on 28 Apr 2008 at 11:09 am #
Imo. MM is fine for kara so you guys that read this in Kara it can be fun… on the other hand when you hit 25 man content MM gets a sharted on… and like the others said SV is awsome as to further 25man raiding guilds most of the people that I know that are further than the first two bosses in SSC and TK have went SV but it really shouldn’t be atempted without a but load of agi….
Member on 28 Apr 2008 at 11:57 am #
I was my guild’s Survival martyr for quite some time. Even though I may top total damage output, that says more for my ability than anything (not trying to stroke epeen here; i’m just saying), but when I got to go as BM, I’d be a solid 200-300 dps higher, with several % more total damage than the next guy. When my raid attendence started slacking due to RL, my GM convinced one of the more regular hunters to permaswitch to SV. It took him a while to get accustomed to it, and he was never particularly great as BM, but now, he’s really come into his own, and is totally rockin. On our 1-shot of Karathress the other night with ~2.5 minutes before enrage, Our SV hunter was 3rd on the wws at >1200 DPS. He was only behind me and the other BM hunter, who actually tied around 1500 dps.
It just shows, though, that once you are comfortable with it, and understand it’s mechanics, it’s an extraordinarily powerful spec, and provides an excellent buff for the physical guys/gals.
Stoop on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:26 pm #
One thing about SV is one is enough. We can stack a few BM’s.
Koring on 28 Apr 2008 at 12:29 pm #
FYI: I play a SV hunter on Bloodhoof. I stayed MM until level 70 and we started KZ, switched to BM for Gruul’s and ZA and then went SV at my guild leaders request as we progressed into Mags, SSC and TK.
@deadrabit
In some ways you are correct in that it is like a full time job. I have and will take new recruits out to the badlands for shot rotation practice as well as trapping and pet management if needed. I read the forums for updates and information and post what I find on our guild website for the other raid hunters to look at and learn from. I expect recruits to know their abilities and talents and know what gear/enchants/gems they need to bring in the top end DPS. They should also know to bring plenty of consumables to a raid whether or not it is KZ or TK. Every boss fight is keyed/optimized under the assumption that we will be flasked/potion/elixir/food buffed.
I don’t want to sound condescending but the trouble you are having in KZ could be because your guild lacks the focus needed to be a successful raid guild. You mention same people, multiple toons and most guilds won’t let you take an “alt” class toon into any raiding instance unless it is on farm status and usually as a reward for being a regular raider. It’s tough to keep multiple toons at peak raid efficiency, unless that is all you do is play wow and have no job or girlfriend or some inexhaustible time to play.
Each raider has to understand his/her roll in a single toon and know it well. Then you can begin to progress. You are right in that its all in the way you play the game. If you are happy with your progression and don’t really have the need to see all the end game content than what you are doing is perfectly fine, you making some progress, get gear and having fun. Once you are beyond KZ I think you will find it very frustrating in progression and retaining raiders.
Yes it is a lot but we do have a lot of fun at the same time. Not as much fun as in the old 40 man raid days but fun none the less. It all becomes second nature eventually and no different than when you are at your real job, you can get things done while playing pranks on your cube mates. You all have a laugh and the work gets done. Okay, it isn’t all fun when you reach a new boss encounter but the work up to the success is the stuff you talk about and bring you together as a team. So why would you bring nothing less than your best performance?
Out here in the real world we can expect death and taxes; in game we can expect death and a repair bill!
@everyone:
Don’t discount the T5 2 piece bonus. The healing link it creates keeps your pet alive much longer and converts the mana you would normally use to cast mend pet into DPS.
Nomakk on 28 Apr 2008 at 2:42 pm #
My current agility is 813, with 1977 RAP and 31.8% crit. I am 0/28/33 Spec’d to max agility and flex my trapping skills.
Agility stacking IS the key. You should strongly gem for it and never gem for anything else. I am all for balance, but as you get better gear, the balance will come all by itself. Creating one very powerful aspect of your build (agility, RAP, etc.) is better than a bunch of sub-par ones. As previously mentioned, with more agility, comes more RAP and more crit, so just play the agility card until you flush out! Check my blog for tips on the Survival hunter if you like!
Anonymous on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:03 pm #
BM > MM. Ideal raid comp is 1 SV hunter, the rest BM. Any MM hunter is gimping their raid.
Anon on 28 Apr 2008 at 3:22 pm #
Re:MM
“It is not gear-dependent.”
Actually, trueshot aura will scale with haste, making it somewhat dependent on gear.
Crosswalk on 29 Apr 2008 at 3:18 am #
IMHO a lot of hunters need to read this thread http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t19497-marksmanship_hunter_theorycraft_strategy/p8/
before bashing MM or stating untruths. Once you reach the BT/MH gear range the line gets a lot less blurry.
Coriolis on 29 Apr 2008 at 6:30 am #
One thing I would like to see, dear BRK, is some true comparison in numbers between BM and SV, because there would be now more arguments about raid benefits :).
Let’s give it a try, shall we?
Take your average 4×1500 DPS raiders and put them with a BM … for the sake of BM goddess I will assume he’s doing 1900 DPS.
3% party buff is 4×1500x0.03=180 DPS, which is his party buff contribution.
In total you have 1900 + 180 = 2080 DPS raid wide contribution.
Now let’s try with SV numbers. A fully buffed SV hunter goes pass 1000 agi … myself I don’t have full T6 gear and I get to 1070 agi raid buffed (without agi totem). Also, the SV hunter, assuming equivalent gear level with the BM, shouldn’t be more than 300 DPS behind, so he will do 1600 DPS.
1000 agi = 250 AP from Expose Weakness. According to EJ forums it’s a safe assumption to give 0.3 DPS per 1 AP for each melee attacker (this includes white& special attacks and it’s averaged, since some classes benefits more than other).
Now let’s look at raid composition for physical attackers: 2 hunters, 2 pets, 2 rogues, 1 retri pala, 1 fury warrior, 1 enhance shaman … I will round it to 8 physical damage dealers.
8×250x0.3 = 600 DPS raid wide buff
1600+600= 2200 DPS raid wide
Please note I’ve been conservative in the calculations for SV, since SV hunters easily surpass 1100 agi raid buffed and I haven’t calculated the bonus damage coming from tanks, not to mention the extra threat tanks can generate.
The only true thing is that, sadly, only 1 SV hunter is really needed in raid … bottom line is, if you don’t have an SV hunter in your guild, ask someone to respec and help him to gear out.
Xuldin on 29 Apr 2008 at 7:27 am #
@Coriolis, I agree that a SV hunter is a good thing to have in a raid, but my guild has none whatsoever, and we do perfectly fine in SSC/TK/Hyjal
Coriolis on 29 Apr 2008 at 8:37 am #
@Xuldin
Of course you can do it without SV hunter, you’re perfectly right. Between you, me and the rest of the hunters reading this blog, you can do MH/BT without any hunters at all !
Probably the only place you will need hunters is SWP (Brutallus) where you need maximum raid synergy to beat enrage timer.
But if you want to boost your overall performance you will get that SV hunter.
Rj and Tito on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:01 am #
Anon… +125AP is +125AP, no matter what haste gear anyone has or doesn’t have. Haste gear ain’t making that +125AP number change to anything else. What haste gear will do is increase the number of hits, thereby increasing the amount of damage done. But those extra hits? +125AP, my friend.
scathatch on 29 Apr 2008 at 9:41 am #
This has always been my concern with going survival and only concerning myself with agi, I have only 720ish agi unbuffed so around 800-850 while raid buffed. I am running AP stones and Crit stones and but a few agi stones and also only run 2 points in EW and demand to be put in with a feral druid in raid to keep my crit rate up (about 50%) in raid. I think that surv yes is less dps than BM but it doesn’t kill your dps if done right cause TotH=for the win.
Stupid Mage on 29 Apr 2008 at 1:19 pm #
So what happens when you stack 5 BMs in the same group and have a SV on the side?
pelides on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:24 pm #
The funny thing is, when you get into later Hyjal stuff and into BT, I’ve seen WWS reports where the Survival hunters are WTFPWNING everyone. We’re talking 2k dps without a pet doing any damage.
I need to find these reports, but you get a SV hunter high enough on agi, put them in with a feral… DAMN! They can put out some numbers BM only dream of.
Again, totally a gear dependent spec and really only used in the far reaches of endgame. Up until that point, BM really is the way to go if you want to pewpewpew.
I’m actually thinking of making the shift to SV for our guild. I figure I can get myself around 1050-1100 agi fully raid buffed and around 40% crit so our melee would be getting a ~250-275 buffed ap as well as my imp hunters mark for another 110 ap.
If I do see a drop in personal dps, it will be more than made up for by all those rogues, warriors, druids and shammies smacking the boss a whole lot harder.
Rj and Tito on 29 Apr 2008 at 2:31 pm #
I was half asleep when I commented.
What I meant was that the +125AP isn’t gonna give an attack any bonus damage if the attack is assisted by some proc or something that gives it a damage boost. A scalable buff is one that gives bonus damage for whatever qualifying damage comes in. Example some weapon proc that gives +dam of some amount will only give that plus amount of damage, not an additional scalable percent on the proc. (ex: 100 damage proc +25% = 125 proc damage on a scalable +25% damage buff) TSA does not affect the amount of the proc’s damage at all, and is thereby not considered to be a scaled buff. It only provides bonus damage on the attacks based on whatever 125AP adds.
So I guess in a way, TSA is dependent on people having haste gear on to get in more attacks. But the statement of TSA not being gear dependent comes more from the fact that a hunter running with TSA could show up naked and have the bonus to the party from TSA be the exact same as it would be if he were geared out the yang.
Nanashii of Whisperwind on 29 Apr 2008 at 4:12 pm #
I’ve been a MM hunter for a long time. I love the MM spec. I find it awesome for soloing (dailies, quests), I find it great for 5-man content. I don’t really Pvp, mostly a raider and have held my own as far as dishing out DPS.
I truly think that each hunter talent tree benefits a raid. Great info here. Lot of good information. Just wanted to put my Two cents in. Love BRK!
Nana, Huntress of Whisperwind.
Mervetw on 30 Apr 2008 at 3:43 am #
Same as Nanashii.
I levelled to 60 as MM then grinded 60-70 as BM. Great for grinding! I did enjoy the BM spec but two things made me return to good old MM.
I’m 0/41/20. Those points in Surefooted and Trap Mastery were what did it.
I don’t raid much - just about to start 25 man content. In those solo, 5 man and 10 man situations, I find my traps being used loads. I HATE it when they get resisted - just distracts me and my party from the job in hand. My guild and I like the reliability my traps bring.
Also, the surefooted talent allows me to stack AP and other gear rather than havign to stack +Hit to get to the 142 (or whatever it is) cap. Instead - I only have to stack 96 (and less with non-bosses).
Actually, there are more reasons… When the trap does get resisted, Scatter Shot is invaluable for extra seconds to get rid of that trap CD. Silence shot is great for helping to trap casters if Line of Sight is not available.
So, I may not bring the best raid buff but I do bring lots of utility to our raids, whilst still bringing a good portion of DPS.
Ok, “those points are SV” I hear you cry! Yes, they are - but make a good DPS spec if combined with MM. I haven’t in my mind found a BM spec yet that combines well with 20 points in SV without gimping my own DPS too much. It’s just my style but I prefer to be doing a good amount of DPS without wholly relying on my pet. The MM points in 41/20/0 give you that but if they are transferred to SV then… I dunno. Haven’t tried it (perhaps I should). Has anyone else got a good BM build which combines BM and SV?
Just my two cents.
Mervetw, Snuffles (Plagued Swine) & Saberclaw (Winterspring Frostsaber)