He’s Right Up There With Princess
“Dear BRK, I have gone beastmaster and want to go with the best spec possible for grinding the last few lvls and doing 5 mans. Thanks, Septeis and Sephim.”
You should spec according to your crew.
Got a Pally-tank, then don’t worry about the Survival tree and improved traps. He’s of the “Crowd Control is Overrated” school of tanking and you won’t be trapping at all. Full BM-spec, baby.
Got a mage and a rogue, then your trapping isn’t going to be critical, regardless of your tank. Again, full BM.
Warrior or Druid tank and no crowd-control classes, then you will need super-traps. A MM/SV or hybrid build will be heavily appreciated. Your crowd-control skillz will be essential. You can do this as a BM, but super traps makes it much easier.
Now when you get to heroics, super traps in heroics are huge because the trash hits so f-ing hard. An SV-based talent spec makes those trap-resists not so guaranteed to wipe your party.
Quick heroic story. We were doing our first heroic Blood Furnace: Warrior tank, rogue, priest, warlock, and us, BM Hunter. Got to the second boss, the big eye thingy and the waves of orcs that pour out of the cages. We couldn’t survive the waves; healer kept getting add-aggro and one-shotted. After four or five tries, we had had enough. We left the group there, respec’d 0/21/40 with super traps, came back and triple-trapped the adds. The DPS focused on burning one orc down at a time while we handled the crowd-control. Properly played, SV is a very effective heroic-spec.
But remember that taking super trap talents in your build does not automatically grant you the skill in using them. Practice, practice, practice. You’re not a mage; it takes some real skill to effectively crowd-control as a hunter.
Pike on 01 Jun 2008 at 11:40 am #
Also: Nab two pieces of Beast Lord Armor for the trap-cooldown-bonus.
It’s delicious.
Kaleta on 01 Jun 2008 at 11:52 am #
“You’re not a mage”, I love it.
Gonna have to start spreading that message to hunters in my guild
Dar on 01 Jun 2008 at 1:15 pm #
I love when SV hunters get some love
2 pieces of beastlord and points in the right places. 20 sec cooldown FTW.
Krag on 01 Jun 2008 at 2:48 pm #
I have the awful habit of meleeing so survival for me is awsome
i know the pets don’t do as much damage nor do i. But with 825agil in
raid buff it is awful hard to pass up being cheered when they read the wws reports… Expose weekness for the win
Septeis on 01 Jun 2008 at 3:56 pm #
Thanks Brk!
My first BF run with the hunter. We got to that eye person. I ran off to the first door and laid a slow trap in front. Gave everyone enough time to grab aggro/cc. Continued for all 4 and got alot of praise at the end :p
I will definitely look into survival for 5mans.
Thanks again.
Kleshta on 01 Jun 2008 at 4:32 pm #
Surv for 5man is not that effective as BM / MM because the main point of surv spec is to give the expose weakness buff, when you do a 5man even with 2 other melee DPS the buff is abit useless (especially since you are not even 70) the trueshot aura (+50ap) or the bestial inspiration (+3% dmg) would be better for now
Moreover if you don’t have ALOT of agility with the little number of buffs you could expect for a 5man the EW bonus will be very low, with the right people you should not have to trap in 5man, and even if you do, with a bit of skill and placement you can easily trap 2/3times the same mob, if the group is not able to DPS a mob pack within this time then change group not spec
Anyway never look for anything beside BM spec, it’s godlike and for me the most interesting hunter spec skillwise and funwise
Paul on 01 Jun 2008 at 11:20 pm #
Prior to 2.4 i spec’ed 41/3/17 for badge farming for fun and profit, and let me just say trapping the Moroes fight in Kara was so ezy even when the odd trap breaks early.
If i had my time over i would def spec 41/x/17 those last few levels and pwn CC with the beast lord 2set bonus. Even without the beastlord gear trapping Heroics is just a cakewalk. So many wipes in Shadow Labs could well have been avoided ><.
This is how i advise my guildies to spec there huntard Alts when they are gearing up. Its just ezymode CC FTW!
Tudi on 02 Jun 2008 at 5:57 am #
Mages need some skill to Counterspell at the right time as well
Zach on 02 Jun 2008 at 7:41 am #
What a perfectly timed post from BRK: Yesterday I just completed my first Heroic — Hellfire Citadel (they say it’s the “easiest” but I thought it was pretty hard :).
As a BM-spec and after crucially studying and practicing BRK’s Rules for MQoSRDPS, I feel like I’m at least not a huntard. But 5 minutes into this heroic and my jaw was hitting the floor and I was apologizing to the rest of my group for feeling so disorganized. Sure I’ve trapped before, but this was the first time it felt really critical to the survival of the group. It was clear my trapping skills still needed practice (it didn’t help that 5 in a row were resisted too).
I’m happy to say I had a skillful and tolerant group, and by the end of the instance we were tearing up — I would hope at least partly because I trapped better and used Misdirect more appropriately after the first couple pulls. After the painful learning experience, it ended up being fun in the end.
With this being my first experience on “higher-end” content (my first heroic, and our guild is still growing into endgame content), I’m curious how often the uber-trapping-skills become a necessity in other areas. I felt that by focusing on trapping and pulling critters off the healer, I was really suffering in the DPS area.
So my question is this: Sure I’ll do what I need to for the team to succeeed, but am I doing something else wrong to be sacrificing DPS for CC?
Stoop on 02 Jun 2008 at 8:50 am #
@Zach
Sometimes trapping is very important. We lost our shackler during Morose the other night. I trapped an add 9 straight traps (Lord Crispin had some serious freezer-burn). Other times, I’m just tossing one at a healers feet to give him an escape. It’s worth working on, that’s for certain.
As far as DPS vs CC. If you don’t CC something, and it wipes the group, it’s obvious what’s more important. That being said, it depends on your group make-up.
ragner on 02 Jun 2008 at 9:54 am #
BF without a pally tank is probably not the easiest heroic. The few large pulls can be hell. Additionally, the trapping there can be tricky - the casters may require LoS pulling which takes some getting used to. Id try Mech as the place to start heroics.
Knurd on 02 Jun 2008 at 9:57 am #
Heroic MgT … Uber hunter story. Tank goes down, mage goes down, warlock goes down, priest goes down but due to talents brings me up to full health … Me vs 2 elite mobs … I get the second, (was a sheep), into an ice trap …
I was still spec’d MM/Surv due to a big weekend of PvP, and had on 2 pieces of my Beastlord gear … So I was able to take them from full health to dead, (although took what seemed like forever), by kiting and trapping both of them. Thank god neither resisted because that would have been the end of that feat.
I so love that spec, I just wish there was a place for it in a 25 man raid.
(And yes, the other 4 people that were there still talk about it, lol, and no I don’t care if you believe it or not. It happened, it was fun, and probably the greatest moment of my huntering career.)
ragner on 02 Jun 2008 at 10:17 am #
said BF meant Ramps
Sonvar on 02 Jun 2008 at 11:26 am #
I haven’t done heroic BF specifically but I’ve trapped as BM just fine. And I agree mostly with Kleshta you shouldn’t do a full survival build just enough to get improved traps if you’re going into Survival from mostly playing BM
Pike on 02 Jun 2008 at 11:46 am #
@ Zach-
In my eyes, CC > DPS. Keeping people alive > getting the mob down faster.
There are sometimes where it might be better to have that DPS though, for example raid bosses who enrage if they aren’t killed fast enough, in which case you can talk with your group/raid leader and decide what they need more: your pure 100% attention focused on DPS, or only about 3/4 of your attention on DPS while you trap.
Just my thoughts =)
Cynra on 02 Jun 2008 at 11:53 am #
Kleshta, one benefit of the Survival tree is that you can acquire Expose Weakness. And, you’re right — the benefit you gain from Expose Weakness in a five-man may be minimal compared to other specs. However, the Survival tree also has options that provide huge synergy and effectiveness beyond the idea that hunters are a straight damaging class. For people who like playing unusual roles or might find themselves not performing as well in those non-DPS roles, the Survival tree is an asset. You’re so single-minded on one benefit of the tree that you’ve excluded the numerous other benefits that make them more-than-suitable for five-mans.
And, honestly, pre-tier 5 raiding or pre-Sunwell badge loot when the gear scales better for Survival, that’s where I think that the spec really shines. Afterwards, they’re more than capable of being damage-dealing powerhouses.
Regarding Zach’s question, if you practice enough and prepare well enough, you can be successful trapping without having the respec for the Survival tree. I’ve been Beast Mastery and have trapped successfully — sometimes dual-trapping — with little problems in heroics. Yes, that tree makes things much easier and if you’re having problems with that and would like to excel in that area you may want to consider the Survival tree. However, the playstyle for a Survival hunter (gearing, shot rotations, and so on) can be very different. To be honest, you should pick the spec you want to explore and play; just keep in mind that some people will show favoritism towards one spec or another and may base invitation decisions based on that.
Dave on 02 Jun 2008 at 12:33 pm #
“Yesterday I just completed my first Heroic — Hellfire Citadel (they say it’s the “easiest” but I thought it was pretty hard :)”
Don’t feel bad Zach - the mobs in Hellfire Citadel resist CC far more than any other heroic instance. Without Improved Traps, I would shy away from that instance. Even with IT, it can be a pain.
Boffors on 02 Jun 2008 at 12:47 pm #
Group make up and group synergy can drive your talent choices. My guild is VERY hunter heavy, and we were entering Kara with 3 hunters. So I went SV for the raid utility of having one of each kind of hunter and the associated hunter buff (FI, TA, and EW), plus IT is great for the Moroes fight. SV can be very fun and having the guild leader and main tank say that with you behind him he does not need to worry about any loose mobs is nice.
metrocake on 02 Jun 2008 at 2:29 pm #
“You’re not a mage; it takes some real skill to effectively crowd-control as a hunter.” Ow, Kitty-man, oww owww oww!
It does take skill to cc as a mage, too…knowing when and where to sheep, and when to resheep. Hunters and mages face some of the same cc issues — my sheep will break just as easily as your trap if a Druid tank swipes and our targets are too near.
And hunters and mages need to be aware of how each other is cc’ing if you’re in the same party. My husband’s BM-specced; every once in a while we wind up with the infamous “Sheepsicle, wiper of parties,” where he pulls my sheep or my sheep goes the wrong way and bam! — frost-trapped sheep. (Hey, that wasn’t on your “wiped” list…) Fortunately (or maybe not!) we play in the same room so we can clean it up fast…on the other hand, I’m sure the neighbors find such moments interesting…
Kleshta on 02 Jun 2008 at 4:36 pm #
Cynra > i totally agree with you, i never underestimated nor spitted on this spec, all hunter specs are awesome for me (still i prefer BM
) My advice was especially formulated for Septeis and Sephim question, i really think surv spec is for high end hunter with appropriate gear, if you are not even lv70 i guess BM or MM would be a bit more effective and more easy on the “learning curve” side.
Surv hunter get alot of power CC wise and are very difficult to play, i never played surv seriously, just waiting that my gear level up and maybe i’ll play it for a while
The thing is i rarely have to CC in an hero instance since i often go with a pally tank 2 elem shaman 1 priest and myself. So we fly through them pretty easily
Anyway the best advice will always be, just try all the things you can, and pick what you are the most confortable with :).
Kleshta out
dmok on 02 Jun 2008 at 4:58 pm #
@metrocake
The thing about mages and CC though, is that they can instantly resheep another mob if the sheep-sicle does happen. the hunter is SoL for at least another 10-15s.
The biggest trick to proper CCing as a hunter is to be prepared. Drop your trap before the tank even THINKS about pulling, that way if the first one is resisted/broken/whatever you can instantly drop another to cover for it. This is independent of spec, and gives even BM hunters a good headstart on trapping for long periods of time if needed.
Personally, in 5mans you do not need uber dps on trash where you need to trap so sacrificing dps for CC isn’t really a factor. and there are no 5man bosses that require chain trapping that I’m aware of, so for those you are 100% commited to dps anyways.
Great post BRK, I’m just happy that my spec of choice is slowly gaining in recognition. But a properly geared SV hunter (we’re in early t5) can still pump out tons of dps. On a standard fight, it’s not often you see any of our hunters (1 BM, 1MM, 1SV) not in the top 5. Add my ability to uber trap and make rogues almost go through withdrawl when I can’t make a raid, and I’m golden.
Of course, the mages/locks learn to love you BM hunters too. So it’s win win, since I get the same love from other hunters as I do from rogues.
On the note of going survival though: if you are looking to do it for serious raiding or even long-term heroics, I suggest holding off until you can get a set together that has at least 500 agility on it. Agility is our crack stat, and you will stack it like no tomorrow opting even for lvl 65 dungeon blues (from Durnholde) over any of the mail leggings until the badge ones or the ones from VR in t5.
Ghostraider on 02 Jun 2008 at 5:34 pm #
Mages have it easy compared to hunters for cc, just like dmok stated, sheep has no cooldown while trap is 30 sec. it’s a reapply of 1.5 sec vs. 30 sec, no contest there. Also if a trapped target breaks lose prematurely a non-MM hunter has only concusion shot to keep the distance. With the mechanic of this game, the mob’s running speed being a variable and always faster than yours, it’s hard to shake em without taking a couple hits. And warlock is just pretty OP when it comes to cc.
Kleshta on 02 Jun 2008 at 9:44 pm #
dmok > yup i agree, i often think it’s much more effective to dps instead of losing time to trap, always laying a trap on the feet of caster / healer in case of a aggro but that’s all
And it’s definitly easier to CC with a mage ^^
Remua on 03 Jun 2008 at 10:32 am #
What I find interesting was the instant assumption that 5-mans means heroics… there are a lot of newly minted 70s that think “Heroic time!” and skip the 70 instances. You have to spend time in the TK ones, Shatt Halls, Slabs, SV, in order to get geared for heroics.
That said, I’m biased toward BM, but I haven’t been in a situation where I’ve *needed* to trap more than 3 times, which is easily done with proper CD timing. There are lots of ‘neat’ stories out there, but speccing based on a cool story isn’t always the best choice. Best spec with limited gear choices for mid 60 to 70 be BM, IMO.
Learn to trap while questing, try to keep a mob tied up while you and you pet of choice kill others, practice the cooldown and when to pull the mob you want to tie up.
As for the heroics, maybe the issue is that I waited until I was “pre-Kara” geared before I started them, but I haven’t really run into situations where super traps were needed. Yeah, traps break early, crap happens, etc. I get that. But if your party can’t burn down 2-3 (I’m assuming there is a 2nd CC available, even short term CC, since basically all classes have something) mobs in the 1.5 minutes you can trap something, there are larger issues at work.
My opinion, slightly biased by my spec choice and one too many heroics with guys wearing greens messing things all kinds of up. And my desire not to trap… the tanks apologize when they mark things for traps. I’ll do it, I’m pretty darn good at it… but I’d rather not. =)
Egam on 03 Jun 2008 at 6:42 pm #
“You’re not a mage; it takes some real skill to effectively crowd-control as a hunter.”
Yeah, I’d like to see you try to CC the “Waves O’ Orcs” in Heroic BF as a Mage, when you don’t have a Pally tank. I’m talking Frost Nova as initial CC here, followed by a Howl of Terror from the lock. The one time I did it, the timing was *very* tricky — Frost Nova too early, and not enough orcs get rooted in place for the AoE fear (things tend to degenerate rapidly after that); wait too late, however, and you won’t even get a chance to cast the spell, since you’ll be slaughtered by the orcs proximity-aggro’ing on you.
Repeat this perfect timing 4 times in fairly quick succession, chain-sheep one orc per set quickly and reliably (making sure not to sheep one that’s DoT’ed by the lock), DPS down the orcs, while keeping enough mana in reserve to take down the boss. Yeah, easy.
The bottom line is, if a Hunter screws up a trap, or someone breaks the trap, in a Heroic or Raid, they still have kiting or pet options, and can usually deal with a few melee attacks while recovering from the mistake. A Mage, on the other hand, typically gets one-shotted or two-shotted. The margin of error is much smaller.
True, Polymorph has no cooldown, but a) Polymorph is not the only CC that Mages are called to perform (see Frost Nova example above), b) sheep tend to break more than traps, because they have a tendency to wander into AoEs, Cleaves etc, and also, since they’re harder to see, they’re easier to lose track of, so more prone to accidental breakage, and c) unlike traps, Polymorph has a cast time (unless you have and use PoM), which can be affected by global cooldowns, casting-speed debuffs, spell pushback, silences/interrupts, etc. so it’s often 3 seconds or more before the spell can complete, during which time the Mage can be one- or two-shotted by the uncontrolled mob.
uke on 06 Jun 2008 at 3:18 pm #
Good article dealing with different group makeups, esp. tank types.
I’m currently a 70 pally tank farming Kara. I can tell you that, unless I’m significantly undergeared or the pull has lots of casters - traps, sheeps, and other forms of CC actually make my life more difficult. It’s much easier to control a group of mobs if you got them all on you in a conscecration circle and not running off to play with the squishies.
‘CC’ stands for CONSTANT CONSECRATION!