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Quiet! She May Hear You!

BRK » 17 June 2008 » In PvP »

“Dear BRK, curiosity over an idea that I had about two weeks ago ended with some of my guildies and a small amount of irritable Battlegroup-goers telling me, “BRK wouldn’t do that! You should be ashamed! Reported!” So I figured I should at the very least see what, if anything, you had to say on the matter. So here goes.

“After losing yet again in an AB that was for the most part unwinnable, I got fed up. After seeing all the wondrous red text that had nothing to do with winning the game and actually seemed to make the experience of playing worse, I lost it. I literally picked up my laptop and dropped it in righteous anger. After replacing errant keys and praying it still worked, I started to think. How in the world will I survive getting 70+marks when I have to sit through 20+min losses. That’s almost a full day’s worth of playing.. not including [queue] times. I mean, I can count the number of successful ABs I’ve been in on a couple fingers.

“So I figured I would get clever and play to lose.

“After spending about 2 hours in between PuGs convincing people and recruiting players we finally rolled into AB and proceeded with a /dance party in Trollbane Hall. It was glorious. No one was angry or complaining because everyone knew what they were getting into. Best of all the game took a little under 5minutes with only 3 deaths, a couple /sorry, and many dancing naked toons. A couple games like that and I was thoroughly pleased. It was going great when all of a sudden I got a flurry of whispers from lvl 1 toons telling me that I was being reported.

“Now I admit that I had kind of expected a response like this from some people, but from alliance players, which is why I fielded an entire team of like-minded individuals. These were Horde characters that rolled my server expressly to report me “for my actions”.

“The only reason I could fathom (none of the toons would tell me why they were so upset) is that these guys really wanted to stomp face. But if that were the case, why’d they /dance with us? And for the record, we always ended up with inter-faction teams of dancing toons.

“So Team FTL is on hiatus for the moment. I can’t get ahold of a GM to get definitive and it seems as though the “report” was an empty threat.

“So I put it to you BRK and anyone else who may read (I may post this elsewhere): “Allowing” superior players to win quicker… is bad? The only people I can see getting shafted are the “serious” pvpers who want to “pwnz0rs”. But I told the ones who hadn’t /ignore’d me, the quicker the games, the quicker I’m out of your hair and you can whup someone else. I fail to see how I’m the bad guy.

“I guess we could just run around placing Explosive Traps in places they’ll never get tripped, running cooldowns while waiting for gates, mount ride all over the place etcetc but the /dance parties were sooo much fun in that setting.

“Anyways, sorry for the ginormous lot of text but people (myself included) respect you and your wisdom. Rua”

Here’s the problem we have with the PvP Honor/Token System: it only requires one to show up.

You want a spiffy piece of PvP-honor gear? Show up to the quartermaster with honor and tokens. One gets honor for winning and losing. One gets tokens for winning and losing. Yes, one gets more for winning, but in terms of token-efficiency, sometimes it’s just easier to lose quickly.

What’s better: one “losing” token in 20 minutes where you fought like h3ll, or four “losing” tokens in 20 minutes where you danced the macarena in Trollbane Hall? In terms of token-efficiency, it’s pretty obvious what the answer is.

But in terms of morality, it’s a little different

Now before Megs descends and lays a smackdown on you, we’re going to say this quickly:

You may not AFK, you may not bot, you may not use game-experience-altering programming, and you may not intentionally lose, butcha dunna have to try to win. There is a subtle difference there, and you’ve got to learn and accept it.

Blizzard legislates morality, oh yes they do. The, “It’s my $15 I can do what I want,” rule does not trump Blizz’s code of conduct. You are bound by written rule and precedent about what actions Blizz permits and which they shun. And here’s the scoop on Team ForTheLoss:

Intentionally losing at PvP by refusing to engage the enemy is not appropriate. So sayeth Blizz, so let it be done.

Want some proof? Here ya go, from the WoW Forums themselves, blue-words from a GM.

Tjourney: “So it is safe for my friends and I to /dance and /train our way to victory/failure?”

GM Vrakthris: “I would advise against it, Tjourney, although non-participation mostly is applied to the Battlegrounds it may also serve to cover arena matches. If you wish to lose at the games you are playing you’ll have to do it the old fashion way and be worse than your opponents.”

So where does this leave the person who cannot win at PvP, whose battlegroup is so imbalanced that they lose 9/10 battlegrounds they enter and just want some stinkin’ tokens?

Fail With Class, foshizzle.

What is Failing With Class? It’s trying to win but not worrying about losing.

Here’s an example of the Failing With Class mantra that you should recite before your pug-PvP exploits:

“Today, I shall attempt 10 Warsong Gulch matches. I am going to PvP knowing I’m going to lose all 10, for Alliance doth both suck and blow here. I shall Fail With Class. I shall not lay down and cry, I shall not yell, I shall not dance, I shall not destroy my computer. I shall die frequently and quickly, and be OK with myself and my stupid, idiotic, worthless teammates, may Elune curse their toons back to level three.”

Don’t /dance in PvP, not because Blizz may actually lay down the Ban Hammer, but because, dude, you’re better than that.

Fail With Class. Get out there and die with your dignity intact.

And do it before Megs breaks you in two.

PvP | June 17, 2008

Comments

47 Responses to “Quiet! She May Hear You!”

  1. Quaelar on June 17th, 2008 7:31 pm

    Well said sire! I cannot begin to count the times I’ve heard in AV, “Just let the horde win…”, “Stop fighting, it’ll be over quicker”. To which I always reply, “I’ll stop fighting when I stop breathing”. Don’t go down without a fight. And when they are picking arrows out of their can, they’ll know you were there.

  2. megan on June 17th, 2008 7:41 pm

    Truth!

    There’s enough people without spines in the world, if you want your token whether it be 3x or 1x, earn it—if you’re losing on purpose, you’re taking up a slot(s) in the game that could’ve went to someone who actually wants to try.

    Gear is easy, this is 2008 WoW, it’s everywhere. Integrity and the memories/blood/sweat/tears is the hard part.

  3. Ankel on June 17th, 2008 7:52 pm

    Each item you buy takes “X” honor and “Y” tokens. The basic problem we’re having is that we have PLENTY of honor and we’re always short on tokens. It seems to me that if Blizzard doesn’t like Rua’s solution to this problem, then Blizzard should look at how they price their PvP Rewards.

    Tie the PvP rewards to ACTUAL PvP or let him /dance!

  4. Kat on June 17th, 2008 7:58 pm

    The only time I ever /dance in a game is if my Horde friends are on the other side and they know they are beat.

    In the Emberstorm battlegroup Alliance loses. Each time I go in BG my goal is to be a big pain to the Horde. It is about the game and earning your gear. It may take me three times as long to get that gear, but I earned every point, token, and piece of gear.

  5. Kemonojin on June 17th, 2008 8:13 pm

    I love the buggered up TOS, where something like ‘we know we’re going to lose anyway, so we might as well have some fun with it’ is bannable , but the goober who was mentioned in ‘How to combat a griefer’ is not.

    Someone who drops out of a heroic group at the last boss but refuses to leave the dungeon (Which, since a heroic is treated as a raid, does not automatically eject them and since they are still in there, you can’t bring in a replacement) is perfectly ‘within his rights’ as quoted by a GM, but my planning on staying in the dungeon to screw him up if he tries to bring someone else in is not.

    Apparently, being an asshat is not only entirely within the terms of service, it’s encouraged.

  6. GimmeABreak on June 17th, 2008 8:28 pm

    Here’s the thing about “hai guyz everyone wants to lose so it’s cool”. Odds are that’s not true. You may have 10 people in there, and the two loudmouths with krap gear want to lose, and another 6 are trying hard and 2 are sorta clueless and can go either way. But those 6 ARE trying and are too busy making up for the other 4 to debate the nuances of deliberately losing.

    I go into a BG to try to win. If it’s a bad one and we’re going to lose, I still try. If you want easy gear, go onto EBay, buy your gold or a toon, and then prance around IF and show off your ubah BOE epix. I’d rather work for what I get.

    And frankly anyone who has a hard time getting honor or tokens is just not trying too hard. It’s like the people who have been 70 for a few weeks and are still working on that darned flyer…it just is not that hard, and if you’re having problems odds are it’s not the game it’s *you*.

    Finally, anyone who says “oh my BG always loses”…odds are no, they don’t, it’s just that your math or memory or both are really off.

  7. Tchann on June 17th, 2008 8:34 pm

    Vrakthris is a GM.

    >.>

    Just sayin’.

  8. Scy on June 17th, 2008 8:37 pm

    @Quaelar I agree 100%. I hate to see people saying just hurry loose so we can get our token and get in a new game. I actually had a wsg where we came back from no caps to win the thing after the people that would give up left for av. For people that spew out these statement just afk wait your 15 minutes and hope you don’t get cued with me again. I would rather make the opposing faction work for those marks and honor as to just give it away.

    Now if you are grouping up with people just to loose the bg so you can get the mark. Hmm I have to say strip nekkid and auto attack then you cant be accused of not “trying”. As long as your teammates are OK with losing for marks then more power to ya.

  9. Septeis on June 17th, 2008 8:46 pm

    Ok. Trust me e-mail person who wrote in.

    I have been in your situation. I recommend that you do only a couple ab/wsgs a day. MIX it up and oyu wont get that mad.

    That being said.

    If your that mad about losing your probably dying alot.

    What you should do instead of trying to cap flags, or defend flags. Let your loser team go about their loser business.

    YOU should run off away from a flag. And practice your pvp. Target someone alone or with a friend. (no more then 2). Practice cc’ing the 2nd and dpsing the first. Practice wailing on the one guy if thats all thats there.

    The object of this futile feat is not to defeat the person or persons. The object is to practice technique.

    I lvl on a pvp server. My hunter gets attacked. I fight back with everything I got. Blow cooldowns, pots etc. etc. I know i wont win. But thats not the point.

    My mage is a true testament to this way. While leveling up i practiced techniques. While lvling through outlands i was able to sucessfully beat people up to 5 levels above me. My mage in kara and glad gear can beat full venge anyones.

    Dont cry and whine. Just go do your own thing. Use that 20mins as a learning experience. Sit back and watch how a warrior fights. Watch Techniques and look for things that give away the spec. Their is alot more to pvp then gear.

    Good luck. Dont give up!

  10. Vash on June 17th, 2008 10:29 pm

    Why not just dress up in holiday outfits or clothing items and pvp in that. Create them BG’s. One day it’s Christmas out fits, the next it’s wedding dresses and tuxedos. Or maybe dress up in leiterhosen (sp?) and dual wield beer steins. Have some fun with it!

  11. Elaith - Hunter, Khaz'Goroth on June 17th, 2008 10:37 pm

    I feel your pain BRK, and believe that too much focus has been put on BG’s and the rewards you get.
    Especially when you compare BG rewards to instance and heroic instance gear.

    Fortunately on Khaz’Goroth the Alliance on the whole dont seem to have a problem with long battles, as alliance tends to suck, and horde tend to have fully decked out epic pvp’ers.

    Nothing says “short battle” more than when my 7.5K HP hunter comes up against 11K HP horde hunters or 15K hP horde warriors/druids.

    A. BG’s should have some sort of filtering so you dont go up against rediculously over/under geared opponents. - a revised version of arena rating?
    B. BG’s should offer MORE rewards the longer the battle continues, thus rewarding teamwork, ability, tenacity and to an extent penalising massive over/undergearing and afk-ing.

  12. Blakmagik on June 17th, 2008 10:49 pm

    i see where shes coming from though…i had to lose 3 consecutive matches of AB that took 3 hours to get my badges :P it can be a freaking *&$^% to get ur tokens and honr, which is really gay and annoying…but there isnt much u can do about it i guess…:(

  13. Rav on June 17th, 2008 10:58 pm

    The only epics that require a little more than showing up are crafted epics. For everything else, you just have to show up.

    Ahem. While Rua’s actions aren’t illegal, they aren’t moral either. There are other ways to get those marks without resorting to /dance-ing your way. Megan’s blog (OutOfMana) have a lot of tips for PvP beginners.

    And I really don’t recommend throwing your laptop because of this.* If you are losing temper, do something else. Do dailies, get a pizza, go to a pub. Enjoy the moment. Don’t let anger and frustration get the best of you.

    @Elaith: There is already a system that in BG to try to queue up similarly geared people against each others. Arena rating, as it is *right now*, it’s worst than BG queuing.

    Also, longer battles don’t mean better teamwork. A great example is AV, where a good group can make a ton of honor by capturing all objectives and a bad group will make few honor by going for the commanders.

    * Due to a freak accident, I lost a laptop due to a relatively small fall. So consider yourself lucky all you had to deal was misplaced keys.

  14. Brissinger on June 18th, 2008 12:48 am

    I’ve got VERY mixed feelings on this. First off, I hate the fact that in my battlegroup I’m losing way more than I’m winning in everything but AV (dunno how, but we pull that one out most of the time.) So I’ve always got the requisite AV marks and honor, but never the AB/WSG/EotS marks. Half the time I wish we could just let the other guy win.

    On the other hand, like BRK says, I hate to just LET them win. Yes I know that by trying all I’m doing is letting the other guy rack up an extra handful of HKs and dragging out a losing fight. But its on my terms, d@mn it!

    I really wish blizz would do something about the mark system. 3 per win is great, but 1 for a 20 minute AB loss, or a 30 minute WSG loss, or a 45 minute AV loss just doesn’t cut it. It just feels so much like a waste of time.

    @Vash

    Love the idea! Just make sure you fight back!

  15. Gilthoniel on June 18th, 2008 1:21 am

    yeah i second (third?) the idea of more marks the longer it takes, for both sides

  16. Sunrath on June 18th, 2008 3:58 am

    1. I’m horde, and almost always when the BG’s I go into, unless it’s an AV. So i can understand your pain there.

    2. Don’t ever stop fighting, like Septeis said, if you know your loosing, use it as time to pratice against those your not so good at. Find a very well geared toon, and just try and pick them off.

    3. I don’t think you should get more honor/tokens the longer the battle, I think that you shoud get more honor/tokens depending on the amount of times you loose/gain an objective, or how long you’ve held it. Example would be WSG. If your D is working well, and your O is working well, then you would get more honor beacuse your flag got picked up less, and you picked up theres more. Extending the time spent in battle will just put an emphasis on people trying to rush certian objectives, and in turn, force more people to take the whole “we’re not going to win, lets just let them”. No one trying to get gear wants to run a 2 hour WSG no matter how many tokens/honor you’d get out of it. Not to mention i wouldn’t be surprised if honor/tokens got set up like that, and you had whole AFK teams going up against AFK teams, they’d be in the BG forever, not doing anything, and bringing in major tokens.

  17. draiggoch on June 18th, 2008 4:27 am

    I was once in wsg when we threw snowballs at the horde - but then we fought afterwards.

    The clue’s in the word ‘honour’ ….. if you get your pvp gear without fighting honourably … well I guess you’re the one that has to live with that …

    Yep we may often suck, but I’m sure as hell going to make it as painful as possible for those hordies

  18. Neven on June 18th, 2008 4:30 am

    In our battlegroup (Nightfall EU) Horde dominates WSG and AB, AV is 50:50, and EotS is -usually- dominated by Horde. Now, on my Horde toons it’s great, but… I have Alliance in the same battlegroup. I know the very -second- I’m going to BG that boy, I’m getting my ass handed to me. Alliance just doesn’t -work- in this battlegroup (except in AV, and there only after all the changes. Go figure).

    Some battlegroups are so horribly off-balanced, it makes me cry.

    …

    Well, back to guarding flag in WSG. Peace.

  19. scott_h on June 18th, 2008 5:40 am

    Just play the game and have fun. If all you want is loot, and you want to spoil my fun to get it, then I suggest leatherworking.

  20. Karpax on June 18th, 2008 6:36 am

    If you can get a group together to dance through an AB-match why don’t you turn it in a premade?

    The horde players aren’t really that much better, even a bit of coordination will probably turn the tide…

  21. Shotgunpete on June 18th, 2008 7:18 am

    I have toons on both sides of the fence. My human warrior was first at 70 and we lost probably 8 out of 10 matches with 20+ deaths in some. I thought if I had a horde toon I would be all geared out quick. Not true, on my Horde toon its about half and half and I swear the same guy that calls everyone noobs and whining on the alliance side has a brother on the horde side doing the same thing.

  22. FORE! on June 18th, 2008 8:53 am

    While it galls me to intentionally lose (and to date I haven’t lost purposely), I can certainly understand the sentiment.

    My battlegroup generally wins AV but WSG, EoTS, and AB is ally dominated by a HUGE margin. (And to one of the previous posters, No, neither my math nor my memory are flawed. It’s a legitimate imbalance in favor of Alliance.)

    I’ve resigned myself to a slow painful grind to get marks in those BG’s (though I do relish the times where I get into a BG in progress and see we’re about to lose 1900/ 340 or some such. Quick and painless and I’ll take that loss gladly.)

    You want more people to stick around in long, protracted BG’s? Simple. Next time one of the 14 YO armchair Generals starts bitching and whining and belittling the members of the team, step up and tell him to STFU. I can tell you from much painful experience that it’s not always a case of incompetence keeping people from their objectives and mostly a case of a superior force preventing it.

    If you’ve got time to be swearing at your team for not living up to your BG standards you’re not working hard enough yourself.
    (I’ll spend half a battle seeking you out just to [Misdirect/Multi] your ass if you’re that guy and victory be damned.] Suck a few of the opposition pets/ minions and you’ll keep civil, oh yes you will.
    Bwahahahah.. sorry

  23. Adrus/Redhunt on June 18th, 2008 9:43 am

    The only time I might /dance is when I’m in WSG horde has 2 flags to our 0 and the horde are just farming for kills.

    I had my first taste of 2v2 and 3v3 arena yesterday went 9-1 on the 2v2 and 5-5 on 3v3(our rogue needs better gear and to get vent) and it was a lot more fun than BG…

  24. Sonvar on June 18th, 2008 9:50 am

    I can understand where you’re coming from but morality says you gotta try. My gripe with BGs is more to the extent of people just saying we suck. If anything that is what makes BGs go bad for me the whiners who just need to shutup and continue fighting instead of taking time to type out we suck.

  25. yunk on June 18th, 2008 10:03 am

    I must disagree, not with the TOS but with the “morality” part.
    Blizzard’s system encourages you to lose. They reward you for losing. It’s as simple as a game of iterative prisoner’s dilemma. The reward for just giving in is so high compared to the cost of trying to win that the most sensible thing is to try to lose.

    What is the result of trying to win when it’s a lost cause: the turtle and 20 -30 minute games.

    It’s not real life, no one is depending on you or will be hurt by your actions. After all if it’s so bad for someone who wants to pvp, then it’s only a small step to say “if you’re under lvl 69 you shouldn’t even enter the bgs” and from there to say “if you are bad you shouldn’t enter the bgs” both of which I also disagree with.

    pvp in wow is not about pvp. that’s the bottom line, and the system they created. want to change it you have to change the system, not try to enforce morality

  26. Rant on June 18th, 2008 10:32 am

    I’ve been playing since day 1 WoW was released, so I’m going to go on a “back in my day” rant. Warning you all ahead of time …

    I leveled on a PvP server and I was there PvPing back before the honor system was even introduced. Back then people PvPed for the fun of it, not because there were any rewards. Then they introduced the honor system and all of a sudden the zergs between TM/SS tripled or even quadrupled in size.

    And then Blizzard introduced AV and WSG. The amount of honor you could get from running these completely dwarfed the amounts of honor you could get from the TM/SS zerg. But here’s the thing - not only was the Queue system completely terrible (i.e. you didn’t want to waste time losing), but since PvP was still only against people from your own server, there was A TON of pride on the line.

    Eventually they would introduce AB … and very slowly Blizzard increased the amount of rep/tokens you’d get from losing. I hit exalted in AB … and then they increased the amount of reputation you got from it. And then they increased it again. And then they started giving you tokens EVEN IF YOU LOST!

    Eventually the old honor system was scrapped, and while I completely agree with that decision …

    People no longer PvP for fun. They PvP for gear … and while that’s all fine and well, nobody cares enough to try and win anymore. People just want the most amount of gear in the shortest time possible.

    “Next time one of the 14 YO armchair Generals starts bitching and whining and belittling the members of the team, step up and tell him to STFU.”
    Yea, because telling someone else to STFU sure makes you look like an even better teammate and surely will not induce more squabbling amongst your teammates.

    “If you’ve got time to be swearing at your team for not living up to your BG standards you’re not working hard enough yourself.”
    This is not true by any stretch of the imagination. Never mind the poor SOB who’s been guarding the farm all by himself and hasn’t seen an alliance the entire time, or the guy holding the flag in WSG waiting for his teammates to get out of the middle of the field to return the flag … but heck, I can type short sentences while healing my teammates with a 1.5 second cast time.

  27. Thori'dal on June 18th, 2008 10:38 am

    Listen, I agree with most goin on here. The problem with the PVP system is that even if wveryone was a naked level 70. The horde side still wins because of their racial abilities.

  28. MmGravy on June 18th, 2008 10:55 am

    I see nothing wrong with /dancing to a loss, its just quicker and doesnt give the hordes honor. Nobody with a brain does AB for honor, its marks that people want and this achieves that.

  29. megan on June 18th, 2008 10:56 am

    Dear BRK:

    Please clarify that megan from outofmana.blogspot.com DID NOT send in that letter.

    I’ve seen this on another blog in response to yours now..

    “This comes up today because of a letter sent by Megan of Out of Mana to BRK and the line catches both my heart and got me thinking is this one:”

    ><

  30. Seik on June 18th, 2008 12:33 pm

    my main issue with losing pvp battles is the ammo i lose and must repurchase

  31. Wildhermit on June 18th, 2008 1:10 pm

    I can see both sides of this here. I have never “quit” in a BG before, but I have “not tried to win” many times. In WSG matches if I see that we are severly outclassed, I no longer try to cover for our flagrunner, or try to hold of the 5 man horde rush on our FR. Instead, I hang out near the tunnels and heal the dpsers or try to jump the stragglers so we can at least gather honor.

    Sometimes you get in those groups. You get stuck in the same crowd over and over. One could take a break and leave the cycle, or one could just learn to “ignore” BG chat and do something helpful while waiting for the loss to come. I wait for towers to cap, I still raid the mines solo. I said mines… Yes I hit both of them when I get tired of “not winning.”

    There are even times when I decide to just be annoying and hang out with Mr. Stormpike and heal or just stun with the cpt america shield.

  32. Malgato on June 18th, 2008 2:25 pm

    I hate AFKers and those that don’t try to win, at least when they are in my BG. I try to win every game or at least try to play my best even against insurmountable odds and in the face of sure defeat. I am very competitive by nature, and the players that aren’t trying infuriate me and pretty well ruin my experience. However, if you are not affecting me or others that are trying to compete (i.e., you form a complete team of “losers”), then do what you want with your time. I think it is lame. I’m not sure why you are paying $15 a month when you are not even trying to play the game, but whatever. As long as you are lame on your own time and it doesn’t impact me, then to each their own. Just make sure your ENTIRE team is on the same page. Don’t screw the people that are actually in the BG to compete.

  33. WB on June 18th, 2008 2:57 pm

    The other problem I see with the OP’s strategy is what happens when you queue up with just 5 or 6 and try to lose. The other 4 people that were unfortunate enough to get stuck with you have no chance. And they can’t leave or it’s the dessertion debuff. So they are stuck cursing you or just trying to farm up some kills. That’s happened several times on my toons.

    The other issue is one pointed out by others. Honor reward epics encourage an odd behavior. As long as you’re willing to put in the time, Blizz promises you some purples. Guaranteed.

    So if it’s guaranteed, then shouldn’t you be willing to put in the time to earn it? Learning to PVP effectively. Going back to that that heroic dungeon again and again to get the PVE weapon or armor that will make you more effective in PVP and therefore have a better chance.

  34. Nifen on June 18th, 2008 3:05 pm

    I’ve seen people form groups to lose on purpose, and I feel nothing but disgust with them. And I have a saying I use whenever I hear someone encourage my raid to lose a battleground so it will be over faster: “If you practice losing, you only get better at losing.”

    I play to win. I play to get better. And I don’t roll over for anyone, I will continue to fight and try my damnedest to make things difficult for the other side. Because hey, screw those guys. Do you realize that by quickly getting one badge, you are also allowing the other side to quickly get THREE badges, further increasing their advantage?

    The one other thing I will say is, you can make a difference in your losing efforts. There are a lot of people who don’t know how to play, or don’t want to play hard. This is a problem. What is also a problem is that there are a lot of people who do know how to play, and want to try, but are unwilling to share their knowledge in a constructive manner. This is also a problem.

    If you ever find yourself yelling at the “noobs” and “idiots” in your battlegroup, you need to take a long hard look at yourself, because you’re screwing up too. I don’t lie down in front of the enemy, but I don’t give up on my team either, no matter how hopeless they seem. Be polite, and educate them–explain WHY your advice is good, without losing your temper.

    Bad: “OMG you noobs, leave Galv the eff alone and go for IBGY first”

    Good: “Guys, hit IBGY first so the Horde can’t rez nearby while we fight galv–make sure to ride through to the flag and fight there instead of letting them hold us indefinitely at a choke point. Thanks”

  35. Rua on June 18th, 2008 4:39 pm

    Wow.. I only expected a reply mail. =/

    I appreciate the post and the comments therein. But all this leads me to:

    “Intentionally losing at PvP by refusing to engage the enemy is not appropriate”
    So.. intentionally losing at pvp whilst engaging the enemy is ok? We can don a variety of dresses, tuxes, santa suits or pirate gear as long as we thwack the horde a couple times? That way we’ll be “worse than our opponents” and inside the lines of the ToS.

    I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m really not.

    My only intent (other than quicker marks) was to bring some fun back to my playing experience. Next time you’re in a BG, or just playing for the matter, look at all the incessant name calling, bickering or just plain sh!@#y attitudes.

    For all the arguments made against Team FTL, we had fun. Laughing like schoolkids over vent at the sight of the costumes horde players brought out once they figured what was up. Picnic parties at the Blacksmith. Dancing in Trollbane Hall. It was fun. Because of the negative attention brought about quite recently (apparently, that “empty” threat wasn’t so..) we won’t be queuing together anymore, but we’ll still be out there trying to Fail with Class. ^_^

    Bytheby, I am in no way affiliated with outofmana.blogspot.com
    I mean I read the blog occasionally but I don’t even comment.

    /dance

  36. Feather on June 18th, 2008 6:20 pm

    PUG pvp was always something I dreaded. I always spent half the game dead, feeling like I was the only one trying. BRK’s mantra is the right attitude to have. Now I just decide ahead of time how many games I plan to play, win or lose, and go for it. If the games are especially bad, I play a game with myself. See how long I can go before dying, and how many horde I can take down with me. I always try to beat my previous record. It gets me through, I contribute to the game and I get my honor and token(s).

    On those wonderful occasions where the group is magically cohesive and we have a chance to win, I’m not already frustrated out of my mind, and I can truly enjoy the win!

  37. Kiya on June 18th, 2008 10:49 pm

    I really don’t see what the big deal is. I tried out a FTL premade a while back one lazy Saturday afternoon, and it was a lot of fun. We danced in xmas outfits, and the horde joined in dancing too.

    I’ve noticed over the years that both dungeon masters and game developers can really get bent out of shape when you go a different way than they thought you would, but hey, thats the nature of the game creation process. If they really don’t want people making FTL premades, then they shouldn’t provide benefits to losing. I know, pretty harsh, especially since I play alliance and we lose most everything. But really, how cheesy is it that they feel they have to harass players who have found a way to make it fun to lose in these disastrously uneven battleground competitions they have given us?

  38. Pinky on June 19th, 2008 12:33 am

    They need a new marks system. Then the people who suck/quit the moment your 1 base behind wouldnt bother joining the games anyways. Since their ususally the reason you lose imo.

  39. Kemonojin on June 19th, 2008 9:47 am

    To be clear, on the rare occasions I can tolerate pvp, I do fight. I’m no good at it, and my gear is utter crap, but I’ll wade in and go down swinging (err, shooting). I don’t LIKE to see 30 people standing in the cave going ‘hay guise loose ktnx’. It irritates me. I don’t want to screw up other people and it annoys me when they do it to me.

    But, since the battlegrounds are no longer about fun, and more about just losing fast to get gear, I can see the other side as well. So a full premade shows up naked and dances. You take the objectives and kill them, you’re out fast with your win, they’re out fast with their loss. I’ve seen full groups ride right through each other, ignoring the enemy entirely.

    I miss the old days of AV, when one game could take days.

  40. Djiss on June 19th, 2008 3:08 pm

    Sorry everyone, but no one lose a BG like I do.

    http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l51/djiss/Sylvarah/WoWScrnShot_121706_195926.jpg

  41. Matt on June 19th, 2008 4:42 pm

    Here’s what you do: instead of /dancing, strip off all your armor and gear and fight with either the Big Fish, a dagger or a pitch fork. If asked why, you reply:

    “Becuz me krew iz so gol’durned good we got’s ta fight nekkid to even the odds. Now have at ye, gurly man!!!”

    It fulfills all the requirements:

    - You lose the “old fashioned way” because, quite obviously, you suck so hard you think you can win naked. You big dummy. Luckily, stupidity isn’t against the TOS (yet).

    - You lose with style - everyone will remember it, I guarantee it.

    - You ARE trying to win - (but hey, you’re gonna die a LOT faster) - mission accomplished!

    And if you DO somehow win, you have the mother of all screenshots and “ownz0r” bragging rights.

    -Matt aka ImagoX

  42. Ithrandil on June 19th, 2008 7:20 pm

    I LOVE PvP, but I hate the mindless honor grind to get the gear that makes it fun to PvP in the 70 bracket. After gearing out a hunter and part of a holy pally set in the so “welfare” epics, then doing kara and ZA to replace them, I must say it woulda been easier just to try and go undergeared. Dungeonsets are easier to get when you think about just how MUCH rescourses you have to spend to get “welfare” epics, between honor, tokens, and most importantly time.

    BGs are fun when you don’t need the gear. BGs Suck when you are undergeared and spend literally ALL DAY just trying to get tokens to get a single piece to bring you up to par. I honestly can’t blame the guy for a second for doing the FTL premade. Honestly, I’ve thought about it myself.

    “welfare” my arse! BG epics are earned through long hours of mindless grinding, PvE gear is just luck on the drops

  43. 20 Fingers » Quiet! She May Hear You! on June 20th, 2008 11:12 am

    [...] Quiet! She May Hear You! …will I survive getting 70+marks when I have to sit through 20+min losses. … count the number of successful ABs I’ve been in on a couple [...]

  44. Angus on June 20th, 2008 4:05 pm

    I’d like to see Blizzard make the following changes to the BG system.

    Win a BG = 3 marks
    Lose a BG = Zero marks

    That way players would be motivated to do their best and get better rather than give up/intentionally lose. No rewards except honorable kills for the losing side.

    It’s sickening how fast and easy it is for players to lose their way to epic gear.

  45. Tharlavia on June 25th, 2008 12:01 am

    Honestly, I have to disagree with the its immoral to go for the loss—cheap and massively annoying–but I wouldn’t call it immoral. Here’s my situation—I hate PvP. I don’t play WoW for the PvP as there are better options for those so addicted; I play because I like the game and strategy of working your way up in the content.

    Now that being said, there are some awfully nice pieces of gear–and I am being very specific such as the non-set Chain Belt for hunters or the Gavel for tankadins (+225 spell dmg/healing? 1.8 Speed? Swing it Baby!)–that are nearly unmatched until well into raiding.

    So to be honest, I run BG’s to get the best gear I can and do my best to be competitive but getting whacked by some uber-geared PvP addict every 10 seconds makes it the equivalent of a novacaine free root-canal.

    So if I have to PvP to get the gear I need to be a better player for instances and content, I’m going to do everything I can to wear down and annoy my opponent to make them punch out there monitor in utter frustration. I’ll trap and run, I’ll stalk you, I’ll even /dance in my BVD’s. And maybe some uber-geared PvP addict on my side can slip in and whack you 10 seconds

  46. Gun Lovin’ Dwarf Chick » Blog Archive » Get the Hell Out of my BG on June 27th, 2008 1:29 pm

    [...] to quit this morning, so I started to read the over 1000+ items, while there, I came across two posts which causes a strange cat-like hiss to emanate from my [...]

  47. bob on November 13th, 2008 2:33 pm

    should be a system of i.e.
    3 marks to winner every time

    AB score on loser side:
    1500+ = 2 marks
    700+ = 1 mark
    700- = 0 marks