Rogue. R.O.G.U.E.
“Dear BRK, [my] Guild has a DKP system in place, and long story short the rouge(sic) with less DKP got [the Dragonspine Trophy] over a hunter with more DKP because certain member of the guild felt that the rouge(sic) would use the item to its full potential. Of course I was like that is Bull Shark because I feel the trinket benefits both classes equally. What say you? Cort.”
Cort, you’re right and you’re wrong, foshizzle.
Here’s how you’re right. If a guild has a DKP system, the rules of the system are written somewhere, are understood by all, and that’s Law of the Land. If the rules of the system are changed during a run or after loot drops, that’s going to make people gquit. What happens is that your guildies start thinking,
“What’s the point of running Gruuls if the GM is just going to arbitrarily decide that certain gear is going to go to certain people? I’ll have more success if I just go to the elemental plateau and farm fire motes.” And your guild’s 25-man runs end, the guild disbands, fire and brimstone come down from the skies, rivers and seas boil, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!
And it’s all so easily avoidable.
Everybody in the raid must know the rules ahead of the run, and the loot-master must abide by those rules, or else there’s no point in going.
Now notice we didn’t say that the person with the most DKP must win. That’s not the case at all. The rules can be anything the guild decides.
BRK’s Dream DKP System, Where Nobody Ever Quits the Guild
DKP is in effect, everybody bids for whatever they want, highest bid wins, except in the following cases:
1. Main Tank gets priority for gear. If a tier token drops that he can use, he gets it and sacrifices all his accumulated DKP, regardless of his balance. Nobody may outbid the MT on tokens. His survival is the guild’s survival.
2. The Main Tank’s primary Holy Pally healer gets priority on her gear. If a tier token drops that she can use, she gets it and sacrifices all her accumulated DKP, regardless of her balance. The MT’s survival is the guild’s survival.
3a. Any 1h or 2h weapons with +Str is not hunter-loot and hunters may not bid if another class wants the item.
3b. Any 1h or 2h weapons with +Spirit is not hunter-loot and hunters may not bid if another class wants the item.
3c. Any 1h or 2h weapons with +Agi, +Int, and +Sta is pure, honest-to-Elune hunter loot and other classes may not bid if a hunter wants the item.
3d. Hunters get priority on every ranged weapon. Nobody who needs a ranged weapon for stats may outbid a hunter for a ranged weapon.
4. Nobody may bid on an item they already have, except in the case of dual-wielding. If you have your tier four shoulders, another tier four shoulder token drops, and you want it for off-spec, everybody else in the raid who can use that token for their primary spec must decline to bid before you may. You may not run-up the DKP bidding if you have the item already.
5.The Dragonspine Trophy is the single-best rogue-trinket in the game, and if a rogue in the raid needs it, he gets priority. However, since so many other classes can easily use it, the rogue must outbid all other classes who bid on it. The bidding ends when the rogue is incapable of raising his bid more.
6. The raid-loot rules can be amended before the start of the raid, but all members of the raid must agree to the change. For example, we bring a new Holy Pally in the guild who desperately needs her tier four helm from Prince. If that trinket drops, she gets priority for that loot, on that run only. The raid is told at the start what to expect, and anybody who disagrees with the rule may opt-out of the raid.
And so on. This is not a complete and inclusive list, and we’re sure you’ll find things to get outraged about, and that’s just dandy. But you can hopefully see that it’s a decent starting-point for developing a guild’s loot-rules.
So that’s where you’re right, Cort. Changing the DKP rules mid-raid both sucks and blows and is one of the most sure-fire methods of imploding your guild. Bad mojo, all around.
But here’s where you’re wrong. The DST is great for hunters, but it’s the Dream Trinket for rogues; it does not benefit both classes equally.
Just because a hunter can use it very effectively does not mean that a rogue can’t put it to better use. If we were in a raid with a good rogue who needed it, we would be hard-pressed to take it from him. How would you feel if that rogue took your Golden Bow of Quel’Thalas just because he could use easily use it for stats? You’d freak out and throw your computer in the pool, that’s what you’d do.
But the most basic preventative measure you can take is, if you’re not sure what your guild’s rules on loot is going to be, just ask beforehand. It’ll save a lot of headaches and broken hearts.
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24 Responses to “Rogue. R.O.G.U.E.”
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BRK you can compare the situations like that.
The Rogue might get a bit more use out of the DST, but it isn’t wildly more than Hunters. Unlike a ranged weapon as a statstick compared to actual use.
The DST is the third best trinket we can get after Berserker’s Call from Zul’Jin and the new Blackened Naruu Sliver. The latter is more than just hard to get, it’s position as the top trinket fits its lootposition. Berserker’s Call is not an easy thing to get either, and it loses out to DST in case the Hunter has Blackened Naruu Sliver.
So you see, the DST is just awesome for Hunters. If the Rogue was running with something like Bladefist’s Breadth and the Hunter had Bloodlust Brooch, then sure let the Rogue get it. Reversed situation? Reversed priority for sure. Relative upgrade is much more important for rDPS than which class can benefit more from the gain.
Also, the awesome Shivering Felspine, while the best Hunter statstick around is downright the best melee weapon for Belf retris. Same problem only reversed.
If you let loot go on priority due certain classes getting more benefit from them without it being decidedly more, then you risk certain classes getting shafted again and again. And those certain classes are us! DST for Rogues, Tsunami Talisman for Shammies, Berserker’s Call for Warriors + Druids… etc etc. We are one of the least scaling classes due to our weapon and ammo. Hence why should we ever get a chance until the other classes ahve gotten their full? Result: Hunters lagging behind in DPS and eventually not brought along, all because of some stupid lootrule.
BRK!!!!
“Pets will get “talent trees” - one utility tree, one TANKING tree, one DPS tree”
http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/06/28/news-from-the-wwi-08-wow-dev-panel/
/glee
> Nobody may outbid the MT on tokens. His survival is the guild’s survival.
Actually, the main tank’s -progression- is the guild’s -progression-. Experience has shown that gearing your MT significantly faster than the rest of the raiding part of the guild destroys guilds. Because, except in the case of a lonely few, the geared tanks stop showing up for raid nights that benefit them not. Or they jump to a more-progressed guild who needs a backup tank - probably because their geared tanks have stopped showing up.
The tanks who jump ship are almost always sorry they jumped - but that is small consolation to their former guild. Who have just hit a brick wall, because their former off-tanks are all undergeared.
Tanks (and yes, I have MTed raids, if only for just over a year) should follow the same DKP rules as everyone else. Your tanks are awesome people, for taking on the usually thankless role of tanking for the whole guild; just don’t build up their pedestal too high.
BRK, as a raiding hunter, I agree with all these. Anyone who DOESN’T has likely never tried to do SSC with an undergeared tank.
Y’know, having (for a short amount of time) raided with a guild that uses the DKP system, I REALLY prefer how my current guild does it. Granted, we’re small enough that it works well, but it just feels… I’unno, nicer.
Phat Lewt drops off of Prince, and the Hunter (me!), the druid tank, the Enhancement Shaman and the rogue can all use it. However, it’s off-spec gear for me and the druid, while the Rogue and the Shaman can just always use it. Main spec > off spec, Shaman and Rogue /roll for it (usually though if it’s a case of one replacing something of lower quality than the other, it gets passed to whoever needs it most).
Roguey and Shaman don’t want it, as they both have something better. So the druid tank and I /roll on it. Simple rule is: highest roll wins, we’ll be back here next week, so it’s not like we’ll never see it - or something better - ever again. No exceptions to this rule, either. Either you can use it, or you can’t, and you are expected to know what you want/need out of where we’re running.
Now to convince the newbie Hunters that no, Gorehowl is NOT better than your Quill/Spear…
And @ Nick, re:linkage…
“Steady Shot will no longer clip autoshot — the speaker acknowledged that Hunters hurt their own DPS by using their abilities.”
… WOOHOO! /wild dancing in the streets!
No more SHOT ROTATIONS! Though I’ll probably still use a macro, simply because my raiding lag is horrible. WTB broadband BEFORE WotLK comes out!
The pet talent tree idea is sweet too, really looking forward to that. Hopefully it means pet happiness will only affect pet damage now.
Well taking a quick look at Maxdps.com (yeah i know its not perfect but its a decent thumbnail view)
for a rogue the DST is ranked as a 36.9 dps trink coming in after both the Naru sliver and the rogue trink from exaulted with Ashtongue (not that difficult to get once you get started in there). Oh and the Shard of Contempt from one of the mid bosses in MGT is ranked as almost as much of an upgrade as the DST is.
For Hunters it ranks as a 54.5 dps trink ranking second only to the Naru Sliver (unavailable to almost anyone). Aditionaly… it is a full 16 Dps upgrade over the next two trinks ; Berzerkers Call and Madness of the Betrayer.
The math on haste is tricky but it seems to scale better for Hunters than it does for Rouges (sic).
Yeah, Nox said what I was going to say. The theorycrafting is definitely not definitive on the dst and many argue that it actually benefits hunters more than rogues. Rogues got one of the best trinks in the game handed to them on a silver platter when hMrT came out…we actually have to work for ours.
I’m not complaining though, I have a dst and a berserker’s call. I’m the hunter officer in my guild and I outbid the rogue officer for it way back when the first time it dropped and he understood because he respects that I wouldn’t have bid so much for it if I didn’t think it would benefit me just as much as it would him.
@Nox
I won’t comment on the suitability of the DST for a hunter versus a Rogue, but I will point out that using maxdps to make those calls is a horrid idea. Maxdps is, for rogues at least, way off base on many many many statweights.
The other thing to keep in mind is that haste for rogues is in some ways reversed from hunters. As our gear progresses, it tends, relative to other stats (particularly hit and agility) to become less valuable as we approach endgame gear, such that by full sunwell gear, it’s possible to construct a gearset where it’s a third or even fourth ranked trinket. Thing is, that happens because we collect enormous amounts of passive haste and procs, and with more haste, other stats become more valuable while the value of haste stays the same. For a rogue anywhere pre sunwell, its still best in slot by miles.
1st someone already pointed out crossbow and dst is not a comparrison thats like saying a hunter would take a dagger for stats and that will never happen. boom outta here
2nd the dst is an incredible upgrade for a ton of classes even pally spreadsheets its nuts. The reason some say it benefits hunters more is because of trinket cool downs and stuff. It cant just proc for 5min straight with out dropping so the theory of “we hit more we can proc it more” runs into a wall. But it IS good for a rogue every rogue should dream for it. But theirs not much better for hunters either untill u hit madness and stuff like that in t6. (hunters btw depends on spec and rotation if haste will benefit but in almost every situation it will, i.e. just knocking u into a 1:1 outta ur 3:2 or whatever)
I see a lot of end-game rogues using DST/Shard of Contempt. I’d still be mad if a rogue got one over me (which I already have, just saying), but seeing as how they’ll be using it until the end of time, I wouldn’t mind.
The point is that I will NEVER EVER just roll over and let a Rogue get it over me. I will fight teeth and nails to get it. And I will provide theorycrafting to back it up if I get turned down.
The trinket is rare enough as it is, getting rolled out due to officers not knowing the value of it it just plain backwards. Rogues are easy to understand. They are DPS and they have been like that since forever more or less. So it is easy to assume they make the most use of certain things. Hunters are an odd breed. Our combat is whacky (thank goodness for the offical word for change), our DPS history is not great, our statdependancies have changed, we can’t even seem to understand it ourselves half the time. And every month some new macro is lauded as the next Stephen Hawkins for DPS.
That leads to many not even bothering to understand us, hence they have misconceptions in masses. So it is better to just play it safe and shoulder the Rogue we understand… right?
cluelessnoob hit the nail on the head. Don’t put all your eggs into one basket. You shouldn’t have a Main Tank, you should have a Tanking Corp. A group of various tanking classes that all work together to achieve raid progression. Certain fights are better tanked with different classes. Having a well geared Corp and not just a well geared MT will allow you to switch as needed and helps prevent guild devastating blows such as Tank burnout or the MT jumping ship.
This isn’t vanilla WoW, where only the Warrior is capable of main tanking in the endgame. You now have Paladins and Druids in the mix and soon Death Knights as well. Learn to use all their unique advantages and gear them all up.
Also this could easily apply to healers as well.
can hardly compare a hunter taking dst over a rogue to a rogue taking golden bow over a hunter, thats like comparing apples and duck. that being said, i think DST is complete crap for a BM hunter until WOTLK (I see someone mentioned pet trees but forgot to mention steady shot no longer causing auto clips, which is MUCH bigger news)
The DST may “rate lower” on maxdps.com for rogues than hunters, but because of the way haste interacts with rogues and with hunters, rogues have no ceiling on the benefit they get from the DST. No matter how much haste they get, it will always help because of Combat Potency and because their attacks are not dependent on the swing timer. Hunters, once they get too much haste, start clipping their auto shots with steady shots, making DST a liability at a certain point. Plus, they don’t get anything more than extra auto-shots out of the DST - rogues get extra attacks AND extra combat potency procs, which leads to more sinister strikes, more combo points, and thereby more finishers. It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison.
We also get more Mongoose procs, more Poison procs, more Windfury procs, more Sword Spec procs, rogues are nothing but proc proc proc proc proc proc proc.
DST makes us attack more, makes things proc more, makes us do moar deeepz.
yes i agree with the notion that a hunter has just as much right at a dst as long as he has proven to itemize correctly around haste.
the dst allows more focus on armor pen and pretty much zero passive haste. it’s that good.
BRK i hope you have never passed a dst to a rogue. that would make me cry a little inside.
DST is best in slot for rogues and hunters.
Less rules the better.
Rule #1: Don’t be a di. . . jerk.
Nuf said.
My Hunter toon has been stacking Agility and Spirt (e.g. of the Wolf) to make up for the lowered regen rate instead of Agility and Int. Admittedly, I’m primarily doing grinding instead of instances, but is that a really bad thing?
So, I outbid a Rogue to get my Dragonspine Trophy. I did the Research. I shared the Math to my Guild. Ultimately, they all said that “the Math doesn’t matter”. I had the DKP for it and the Rogue did not. That was the way the loot rules worked. If the guild had asked me to pass on it, I would have done it…but I would have wept a little inside.
Now, I would have never bid against the Rogue on a piece of gear that was clearly “Rogue Gear”. If it was Leather or a 1H Weapon, I would never bid against a Rogue on it. Trinkets, Cloaks, and Necklaces are different though.
Rogues that argue that the DST is “Rogue Gear” are simply delusional. For instance, Fiest’s assertion that “DST makes [rogues] attack more, makes things proc more, makes [rogues] do moar deeepz” is also true for Hunters. More attacks = More Crits/Hits = More Kill Commands/More Changes to Proc IAotH. Yes, there is a cap to the amount of Haste we can stack…but the moments that I hit it are pretty rare and due to extreme circumstances (for example, if I pop Rapid Fire or a Shaman pops Heroism then my DST and IAotH proc at the same time….it is hectic…almost impossible to control any kind of “rotation”…but MAN, that is a lot of DPS…first time I broke 2k DPS was under those circumstances).
“DST makes [warriors] attack more, makes things proc more, makes [warriors] do moar deepz”.
“DST makes [ret pallys] attack more, makes things proc more, makes [ret pallys] do moar deepz”.
“DST makes [enh shaman] attack more, makes things proc more, makes [enh shaman] do moar deepz”.
“DST makes [BM hunters] attack more, makes things proc more, makes [BM hunters] do moar deepz”.
I think all of those classes will argue that the above statements are true. Saying that a Rogue deserves it *more* says “Rogues are of more value to the Guild than [insert class]“. If that is true for your guild, then yes…the DST is “Rogue Gear”.
Meh. Down with DKP. Our philosophy is: 1) roll on it if you can use it, with preferences for obvious class affinity. 2) if you have already gotten a purple item in the current raid, defer to anyone else who is rolling. As it is, we have over 200 of the purple shard thingies in the gbank, even with this strategy of trying to avoid sharding items that people can use.
I strongly disagree with your logic behind gearing the main healer and main tank first. It’s easy to say that MT and MH keep the raid alive, but guess what? Without proper DPS and backup healers your raid ain’t progressing through anything. Ever hear of a DPS race? That being said, I would give a token to a MT over a DPS if the MT benefitted more than the DPS would. However I would do the same for any two players. I sincerely hope people see through your flawed logic.
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