Tankadummies
Typhoonandrew wrote a response here to our feelings about paladin tanks and crowd-control. We feel he accurately represents the feelings of skilled tankadins, and as such, we need to expand our previous writeup and discuss Tankadin-Hunter dynamics. ‘Cause we’re not gonna be outclassed by a cockroach, no sir.
(Paladins are cockroaches because they’re extremely durable and very hard to kill, but really can’t hurt us hunters in the least.)
The problem with Avenger’s Shield isn’t the spell itself, but with the paladin who casts it. Let’s have a quick quiz.
Tankadin Quiz: Given this four mob pull, where mobs A-D are non-casters, and you want the hunter to trap mob A, at which mob should the tankadin throw his shield?
The answer is D, foshizzle.
Mobs B anc C are closer to the paladin, they’re right in front of him. And he might want to pull one of those so he doesn’t body-pull.
But Avenger’s Shield hits three mobs. If he chucks it at mobs B or C, that stupid shield will, more than likely, hit mob A. And if the shield hits mob A, the hunter will not be able to pull and trap it, as he won’t be able to overcome the aggro the shield generates.
What happens is that the hunter tries to pull mob A, dumping Distracting Shot and Arcane Shot into it, and watches mob A still run for the tankadin. The hunter will freak out, start pumping DPS in the stupid mob, while the tankadin slams Consecrate and maintains his aggro-lead.
The hunter will never overcome the tankadin’s threat, thanks to the Blessing of Salvation the hunter has. The other two DPSers don’t kill the primary mob that needs to die, and the tankadin takes so much damage from the four mobs he’s got beating on him that the healer can’t keep him up. The tankadin dies, the party wipes, and much swearing and party-quitting ensues.
Smooth move, ex-lax. You, Mr. Pally Tank, are a Tankadummy.
Your pull should look like this:
The tankadin moves to his right and tosses his shield at mob D. The shield bounces to mobs C and B, leaving mob A untouched. Mob A will be link-aggro’d onto the pally, but the hunter will easily be able to grab aggro and pull Mob A into the Freezing Trap.
The DPSers focus-fire on the primary target, it goes down quickly, the hunter chain-traps mob A, the other mobs go down in succession, the pally tank grabs the trapped mob, it gets killed, really nice hunter-loot drops from the trash, and everybody is happy, they sing songs, and become heroes in legend and lore. Nice.
What does this pulling-strategy require? Three things, really:
1) Communication between the paladin tank and the hunter.
2) The hunter cannot be a huntard
3) The paladin tank cannot be a tankadummy.
What many hunters find is that the paladin tanks wants to pull mob B or C and not allow the hunter to trap effectively. When this happens, the pally tank is either saying, “CC is for Warriors; I can tank everything,” in which case you oblige in kind. Or you have a tankadummy who doesn’t know how to use his shield properly.
In either case, don’t try to trap with a paladin tank who won’t work with you; it’s a waste of time. The ultimate crowd-control of a mob is killing it, so focus on that, capice?
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Lovely written, man I laughed my ass off, becuase this is 100 % always the case, not just with pugs, but also 5 man guild parties. I will miss direct this lovely piece of text to my guild mates, that will make them think next time. Just like in Black Temple the same phenomenon.
100% awesomeness. Great follow-up on your original post.
I’m a Paladin tank and I’ve been making pulls like this for as long as I can remember and so has the majority of paladin tanks out there – it is not new or innovative. Just like hunters, we understand our mechanics and how to use them to maximize the effectiveness of the party.
I’m disappointed in your apparent attempt to coin the term “tankadummy”. Hunters have had to live with the derogatory term “Huntard” for ages now and I would think you would be the last person to start calling other classes childish names just to make a witty post. Class elitism is just silly.
Oh, and by the way, hunters never get Salvation in any of my parties or raids.
Eh, maybe it’s just the people who I group with, but every time a paladin wanted me to CC, he does so without any regard for what his avenger shield hits, and I get the bad situation as described above.
On the other hand, I’ve dps’d for paladins who were confident in their tanking and just waded in without worries about CC and those runs come out fine.
Bottom line, if you’re going to want CC, know what the other classes are capable of and take that into account. You don’t consecrate with a sheep’d mob in range, so don’t dump aggro onto a mob targeted for a hunter trap.
1) BigRedKitty is all about class-elitism. We make no apology for thinking and advocating that Hunter is the best class there is. Our WoW Insider header is bluntly accurate when it states: “…a column with strategies, tips and tricks for and about the Hunter class, sprinkled with a healthy dose of completely improper, sometimes libelous, personal commentary.”
2) We think ‘Huntards’ is a perfectly acceptable term, as it describes the unskilled-hunter perfectly. At BRKWWA, we are committed to curing ‘huntardism’, and not acknowledging the problem would be akin to condoning it.
3) We are thrilled to hear that you, Gothyelk, are doing your class proud and performing in a manner that maximizes your effectiveness. Unfortunately, your class is rife with tankadins who are unaware of the intricacies of hunter-paladin dynamics. Rife, we say!
4) The bizarre thing is this: Tankadins who prefer to ignore CC and tankadins who don’t understand CC perform pulls in exactly the same manner. Isn’t that freaky?
“Oh, and by the way, hunters never get Salvation in any of my parties or raids”.
This ^
The Tankadin way I do that Pull. Skull “D”. Fire Avengers Shield at A getting B, C and drop a instant Judgement on D as it runs in since not under a daze also. 4 Pull I get all the mobs, which will eventually be in Consecrate soon and no CC needed and no one to mess up trapping, trap resist or whatever. Fight goes faster and I have to waste less mana which don’t have much of anyway.
I main as a Paladin and does also play a Hunter both at 70. But Tanking is my thing. On Instance run or Heroics I communicate with my group just the way I am. If I realize a Hunter (Pug or someone I don’t know well as a Hunter) have a hard time Trapping a Target I give to Him for whatever the reason and he dosen’t trap it or can’t control it….I never mark a Target for Trap again. I won’t say a whole lot to the Hunter, but a square never goes up again either. I would rather CC it myself in Consecrate based on how I Tank and have focus fire on whatever target is marked for Kill order. Fight goes much faster especially with my mana effiency burning on all targets. Usually don’t have much problem either after that.
In some Instances I’ve seen DPS and Hunters included that can’t seem to stay on the right Target if marked. Thats not the Tank fault failing to be on the right target as “Marked”. When I see that in PuGs as I often run PuGs as well. Simply I will only mark one target and one target only with a Skull which should be perfectly easy to understand. On my Tank runs as a Tankadin if I don’t mark a Target it means one thing I don’t want DPS to do anything to it, which should be easily understood as afterall its not marked. Tankadins have their own way of doing things different to the other Tanks. The thing is to learn how the Tankadin your run with as a Hunter tanks whether he uses no CC, minimal CC or he CC it all himself!
Most good Tankadins understand what their gear can do and as such will pull as such to get the pull done faster and with mana effiency on larger pulls for mana on healing thus not liking to have CC.
Thanks for this BRK, I am currently leveling a Paladin and haven’t decided whether I want to tank or heal, this is good though, because I sure don’t want to be a tankadummy!
We call ours a Pallywhacker and I’ve enjoyed forwarding these posts on to him
One other way to do this pull, assuming that you don’t care WHICH mob is trapped so long as A mob is trapped, is to have the hunter place the trap in between the mobs, and where they will be tanked.
Paladin throws Holy Frisbee.
Paladin runs back a bit.
Some Mob runs over the trap and gets iced up.
Other mobs continue towards paladin and arrive in consecrate.
Carnage ensues.
Eventually, trap breaks. Hunter should be ready with an MD/Distracting in case it heads for a healer.
This is especially helpful on
1) the 3 Mob version of this pull.
2) The HEY THERE’S A CASTER version of this pull, in conjunction with line of sight issues.
3) versions of this pull where mobs are positioned oddly and shield bounce cannot be well predicted (say, all in a circle or somesuch
Salv on a hunter? Say in ain’t so! That’s why God (or at least Blizzard) gave us Feign Death. I’ll take Kings and Might; save the Salv for those poor classes without proper threat mitigation.
aye aye!!! lol we ran kara last night with no pally and no blessing of salv…oh it was a weird night O.o
In situation above, if pally is throwing at B or C and hitting A, hunter should trap D.
Hunters should NEVER get salv unless huntard.. we have the best agro dumps in the game.
Otherwise, totally agreed.
Also, as my other main is a moonkin and an agro whore.. I love pally tanks and prefer them to all others, no matter what toon I’m playing. /pallylove
I could wish that all classes understand and utilise their mechanics appropriately. Unfortunately ‘tardism is not only prevalent amongst hunters.
As a pally tank, the thing that pisses me off about hunters is that I can never get them to drop a trap between me and the mob group before the pull. I want them to drop the trap out front, I’ll wait a few seconds, then shield pull them over the trap, trapping one.
Then I continue backing up until I can drop consecrate without breaking the trap. The reason I do this is because I like to know where the trap is at all times so that I can consecrate without breaking it and I know when it eventually breaks so I can stun it or pick it up with a judgment.
Speaking of breaking traps…. I also can’t get healers and dps to stay behind me so that when the traps/cc break, the mobs run through the consecrate when going towards the aforementioned dps/healers.
Intresting Post, BRK. Ive noticed many of your readers have already shared opinions and I’ll try not to duplicate too much. I think the post is well written and easy to understand. I’ve played both hunter and pally tank and in my experience I too, usually do not salv my hunter. I believe FD is just too resourceful
Anyways, I did want to point out that for a skilled hunter anyways, should the pally tank have chosen any other mob to hit with his frisbee the hunter 1. Should be able to notice he’s not targeted correctly and 2. Notice which mob did not get hit and adjust accordingly. Picking up the mob shouldn’t be that difficult even if you didn’t see the pull at all, as its the only one that wont be dazed. Being aware and adjusting isn’t just part of being a good hunter its part of being a good team mate. Ideally the wipe scenario wouldn’t happen at all, and if it did you couldn’t pin it on the pally alone, as the hunter would also be at fault for not being on his toes.
Just my .02 cents though
Yet again you’ve shown how stupidly simple something can be and yet I bet a large number of people just didn’t think about that.. I’m sure I’ve seen tankadummies throw their Frisbee at the center target time and time again on a pull.
That all said the bad news is that mobs don’t line up like the pretty picture and even when they do you can be sure as heck that the guy on the ends gonna be a ranged caster with no corner to hide behind for your run around the corner and hide pull. Maybe in wotlk they can come up with a spell that lets the hunter put his hands over his eyes “so he can’t see me”…
Btw the whole Pali tank, don’t believe in CC, is the funniest thing you’ve written yet, partly cos it pretty much matches word for word what my fav pali tank always says when we go for a fun heroic.
As a Hunter and a Tankadin, I’ve seen it from both sides of the net.
I have to say that in general, if the Tankadin overgears the content, then your original post was spot-on. As a T5/early T6 Tankadin, I generally AoE most heroics quite happily, as long as my healer isn’t asleep or drunk. I prefer this method since then I know exactly who has aggro on all the mobs, me. Sure you Hunters can feign, but what about the poor healer who’s been building up healing aggro on that lone, unconsecrated mob. Sure I have a taunt, but with a 15sec CD, resists hurt.
That said, if the Tankadin doesn’t overgear the instance, (which seems to be the case with Typhoonandrew’s Pally), the above post is a good description of how to work with Avenger’s shield.
That looks like most of our four mob pulls with the Tankadin I usually run with, and it usually goes just like clockwork. In an all non-caster pull if he marks one for CC at all it’s so I can practice chain trapping.
For fun on smaller pulls, my Pally will mark a mob for trap, pull normally and then we ‘play Omen’ to see if I can pull the mob off and trap it. Unless I get creative or lucky the mob dies before I can pull threat, but its tons of fun just dumping hate on it from across the room.
Caster mobs are my department always, he tells me where he wants to pull the regular mobs back to, and I tell him where I will be trapping the caster, and thanks to the BRK Chain Trapping Instructional Video (shameless plug) those suckers always go where I want them to, even if I have to run a way for LoS.
Ok,as a tankadin,I’d like to state a situation.
Lets take a cute instance like MgT.MgT mob positioning sucks.
They like to throw parties with nagas,and dance in circles.
Now,we have our avarage 5+imp mobs group.Go figure which mob the shield would hit,when they stand in thier weird formation.
My point is,this is how this should be done.
Hunter traps just a bit infront of Tankadin.
Tankadin acts Captain America.No matter which mobs were hit,Tankadin steps a bit back,put Holy shield up,and consecrates.
If done correctly, Trapped mob should be right out of Consecrate,frozen.This allows Tankadin to see what happens with trapped mob,whether he resist,gets trapped,or wets his pants.Once done,Tankadin steps a bit further back,so the hunter could repeat.
Carnage promised.
P.S.
Unfortunately for me,I usually group with Huntards. Like,”I can’t kite Kael’s pheonix on normal” huntards,so I am forced to give them Salvation.Poor me.
P.S.2
I tell you for real,CC is really sometimes overestimated.
P.S.3
I want to have a crocolisk like Snap back too
Jupis,
Sporeggar EU
I think that there has been one thing forgotten in these two articles, namely, that often huntards forget or ignore the fact that paladins use an AoE spell to tank with. I tank with my pally, and often run into huntards that, even when I give them a target to trap, end up putting their trap in an insanely stupid position so that it is dangerously close to where I will be AoE tanking the rest of the mobs. So when I avenger’s sheild D, pulling B-C-D, and they grab A to trap him, A ends up in an area so close to my concecrate that if I move even a little in that direction, the CC breaks and then we have a lose mob running all over the place.
So, I’d say the final thing to remember when trapping with a Tankadin is: always trap at the farthest point possible from the tanking position.
My name’s Deemuhn, and I’m a tankadin.
(Hi, Deemuhn)
Paladin Tanks asking for mobs to be trapped just for the sake of mobs being trapped is stupid. Hunters trapping mobs just for the sake of trapping mobs is also stupid, unless you’re doing it on your own in Arathi Highland for practice.
If there’s a legitimate reason for the CC, you’re absolutely right. It’s up to the tank not to be pants-on-head retarded and allow you (the hunter) to pull it, or keep from breaking it himself. Kudos for calling it like it is. What I really don’t understand, however, is the mentality that one (or more) mob(s) must be trapped/turtled/sapped/banished/enslaved/blinded/ feared/stunned/kited/snared/slowed/etc…
Death is the most absolute form of crowd control you’re right, but I would assert that tanking the mob is the purest. If the mobs aren’t gibbing healers, they’re controlled already. Although I’ve poly’d a mob that’s been trapped just for the giggle factor of seeing a turtle on ice, I don’t do it for the safety measure. Why should it be any different when the mob is safely tanked?
Note – Much of this isn’t directed at you specifically, BRK, I’m just ranting…
P.S. Salv on hunters?! I want him/her generating aggro for those juicy misdirects so I can go A.F.K. and fix some chili!
Win.
Can we roll on some chili?
/roll
95!
ulushnar, mobs in traps are out of the aggrotable. They retain the aggro they had when getting in until they get out. I think it is like that for all CC but MC (but outside MCing the healers in SL I don’t think it is used much).
In any case, healingaggro is spread out over all the mobs. 100 H-aggro on one target = 100 threat. 100 H-aggro over 5 mobs = 20 threat on each. That is partially why pallytanks in heroics are made of pure win. The healers are more safe from ther own aggro.
About all the “Hunter should pick up unhit mob” comments. Sure, and I at least try to do that if I’m uncertain of the pally. However, misses (or resists) can often mess things up, and they certainly do happen. Also, it is far easier to apply the Avenger’s Shield correctly on a line of mobs than it is to trap a different target. You don’t have to be very unlucky for it to be a caster while you have no options as to LOS the bugger. Not going to be fun trapping that with the trap down.
Tankadummies… gotta remember that next time I see one, or a guildy pally begins to fool around in the gchat.
Oh yeah, as many others, lay off the Salvation, it gives Hunters gas and makes the little baby Jesus cry.
Im loving the extended tankadin discussion. I flick between a BM hunter and a pala tank main. The sad thing is, some pala tanks dont understand how their shield pull works. The really sad thing is, those pala tanks certainly dont read BRK’s musings. There are hunters out there who refuse to use pets as its too complicated, there are palas out there who will throw their shield AT the mob that was just sapped, then blame the rogue while everyone corpse runs. not understanding your shield pull is like a hunter not understanding how his pet runs in and attacks – we use the darn thing almost every time we attack, it boggles the mind that some palas dont learn how it works through doing, its sad it even needs to be explained in a blog.
Im strongly in the camp that believe cc can be overrated by many though, hunters the most as it stops us dps’ing for so long.
As an example…
scenario 1: hunter trapping. pala pulls, hunter is off to the side and distracts a mob into his waiting trap. Hunter moves and sets his second trap as fast as possible, to get that cooldown going incase a third trap is required. Hunter then targets skull and gets down to business. Thats the ideal situation, where the trapped mob didnt take forever to pull thanks to taking a shield bounce, the trap wasnt resisted and the hunter is quick and efficient in his actions. The hunter, at best, is not dpsing for what… maybe 8-10 seconds? what with setting up his next trap. The pala smoothly picks up the trap at some point, everyone celebrates.
scenario 2: no trap is marked. pala pulls. hunter misdirects to pala and begins to unleash all his artillery on skull the second that shield hits. The mob is slowed by the shield and coming slowly yet angrily towards our paladin hero. Everyone is nuking him, the mob is badly hurt by the time he arrives. Even if the pala doesnt stun him, he’s only getting 1-2 hits in before skull dies.
Both scenarios have the same result – the same max number of mobs hitting on the tank. One scenario leaves a trapped mob, the other leaves a dead mob and significantly less chance of anything going wrong in the process. The whole group of mobs die faster, the hunter gets to top the dps meter and the pala gets to epeen about his mad tanking ability. Hunter and pala become friends, have children and the world keeps spinning.
So I got carried away, but the theory is fairly solid. mage and rogue cc doesnt take away from their dps, hunters sadly does. Im sure most of us have wanted to throttle the lock bragging about his top spot on the dps meters as we know we’ve slipped to second or third thanks to constant trapping. I dont think Blizzard built any group pulls to require cc, as long as everyone knows what they are doing. If something goes wrong, there’s always hammer of justice to cc something long enough to sort things out, and the hunter still has his trap cooldowns to save a clothie from a wandering mob if need.
Everyone has their own way though, when playing my hunter i would never demand a pala tank plays another way. I think there’s an unwritten rule that tanks lead groups and are right whatever they ask of you! Also, I kind of enjoy trapping, and I suppose this is all supposed to be about having fun
Using diagrams – I should have thought of that. You’re spot on, and given the feedback on the two posts it seems to have made a resounding impression with the community. Excellent!
Maybe something will sink in. By the way “Cockroach” is pretty accurate. I would have chosen something a little less nasty like Armadillo or Rhino, but cockroaches are pretty much indestructible. Damn you hunters.
Btw – check out the Australian Rhino Cockroach, its a beast. As an Aussie Pally Tank this is what you fight when you fight me.
I was lucky enough to get in a Kara run few nights ago as a hunter, and got Salved. And Salv it was all the way we ran, despite me doing about three successful FDs at Moroes, and not being one of the Garroted people.
/sigh
Maybe it was their noob protection, wouldn’t know.
And as a pallytank… I would sure as hell Salv a hunter in my instance group. I’ve seen so horrible hunters on my server that I wish I could stack the damn thing on them. FD is for kids! What, Growl can be turned -off-? My pet can tank that trash just fine, no matter that its identical brother Mortal Strikes the hell out of the tank. No, really!
CC stands for Constant Consecration. I play a 70 Prot Pally and BM Hunter and if your Prot Pally can’t handle the adds in any 5 man he isn’t really a tank. That said, if said Prot Pally doesn’t know how the Shield Chains in Raids than he is indeed a “Tankadummy”
Are you forgetting something from the typhoonandrew response BRK? If you mark a target for CC, avenger’s shield will skip it.
@Harmun – “Are you forgetting something from the typhoonandrew response BRK? If you mark a target for CC, avenger’s shield will skip it.”
Nope, marking a target does nothing more than just pop a symbol above the monster’s head. I wish it were true that a mark had influence, but alas we still must do it the old fashioned way.
However some CC will skip, others will break instantly when hit by the Shield. Sap or Sheep will not break, but a trap would. That only helps too if the Sap or Sheep is already in place when you use the Avengers Shield. Typically a AvShield will be used to initiate the pull.
In Mgt I can see a use, Sap a caster, Sheep pull with the mage who runs like heck behind the Paladin. Pally Consecrates and AvShields which loads up on threat, but does not break the Sap or Sheep.
BRK you are a funny guy
[...] I’ve been involved in a cross-blog conversation over at Big Red Kitty and Typhoon Andrew, but rather than using their blogs to step up on my soapbox, I figured [...]
I read this, and many other posts complaining about tankadins. And I find myself baffeled. I run with a more or less constant group (we’re four regulars who sometimes has to pick up our last one if our mage is playing golf), and our main-tank is a paladin. And I must admit that he was actually the one who thaught me to chain-trap. Ok, it was me doing the trapping, but he was the one in the beginning who told me where to put the first trap, and he was the one who stopped the mage from sheeping before I had my trap under control.
He is pure gold to run with, and I find myself hating to run with warrior tanks, as I pull aggro off them, even with BoS and close scrutiny of OMEN/zealous use of Feign Death. Give me a good tankadin, and my day is made.
^^;
One other thing to add, Avenger’s Shield is smart.
In the above example, you target D, the shield may very well target B, C, and then D. It doesn’t do what you tell it to, it does what it can to maximise hits (and often this means it actually misses the desired target).
Sorry, avenger’s shield isn’t smart, in fact its dumb, its annoying. The correct place for a trap is in the line of the pull, who cares which mob is trapped (or if we did why isn’t the hunter running to put it on that mob?), I want aggro on a trapped mob, so if it breaks it comes to me not the healer or the Hunter who gets themselves killed. CC should always be:
………..Mobs
……….|.CC…| Pull corridor
……….|…CC.|
…….__|..CC..|______ Kite Path
…../….|..CC..|……….\
….|.CONSECRATION ..|
….|..CONSECRATION…|
….|..CONSECRATION…|
….\…….Healer………./
…..\______________/
CC in front of or to the side of the tank, kite around consecration, and the Healer is close. Tanking outwith the pull corridor / front arc is annoying for a tank because it makes it hard to see.
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