Questions ‘Bout SV
Question #1: Hmmm. We sacrifice the bonus to crit-damage from the old Slaying talents in exchange for a pure bonus-damage to everything we are tracking.
/hmm
This talent is a no-brainer for people deep into SV, as well as MM with a desire for super-traps. But for those of us planning on staying BM, will sacrificing Efficiency and Aimed Shot be worthwhile for this? Will the 51/20/0 BM spec be modified to 51/15/5?
Efficiency vs. Improved Tracking, we just don’t know the answer yet.
Question #2: Is anybody at all paying attention to this oft-forgotten talent? Look at what has been added to it: 60% spell resistance for 10 seconds.
{demonic wailing in the distance…}
What you just heard was your battlegroup’s entire population of warlocks and mages screaming in indignation, yes you did. Will this be throttled down? Perhaps, but can you imagine a hunter with Bestial Wrath, Deterrence, and Pain Suppression running amok in an arena, or running the flag in EotS or WSG?
Not to mention, this should give us Holy Resistance as well…
The 51/8/12 BM PvP-spec is born.
Question #3: The old talent said, “chance movement imparing effects will be resisted increased by 15%”. Well this has been changed to just a flat reduction in time, and this needs to be investigated.
A warrior’s Hamstring lasts 15 seconds. 3/3 in Surefooted will reduce this by 30%, or 4.5 seconds, meaning the Hamstring will last 10.5 seconds.
What would you rather have: a 15% chance to avoid the Hamstring all together, or always reduce the Hamstring to 10.5 seconds? You know, we think we’ll have to go with the latter and call this talent modification an upgrade, but we would entertain your dissenting opinion.
Question #4: Well now, isn’t this purty. Stand at range and you’ll kill stuff faster, we like that a lot. But it feels like it’s praising us for just doing what we should do naturally.
“Yay! You got up in the morning! Here’s $10,000 for doing the right thing!”
Makes you suspicious, doesn’t it?
Question #5: So how did this thing make it into the group of awesome talents that make up the revised SV tree? It doesn’t belong, you know what we mean?
Imagine Peyton Manning of the Indianapolis Colts throwing perfect strike after perfect strike down the field at his receivers. He looks awesome, in control, and dominant.
Then he walks to the line, puts his thumbs under his armpits, squawks like a duck, takes the handoff, turns around, and walks into the line of scrimage, gaining a yard by pure luck.
That’s how we reacted when we read about Potent Venom. It’s not bad, just terribly, terribly out of place.
Question #6: This is a pinata of awesome-sauce, isn’t it. The talent that’s going to shake the foundations of raiding-hunter spec-diversity like nothing since Serpent’s Swiftness. Is this the talent that’s going to make you consider SV?
We love the BM tree, we think you all know that. But this talent, as awesome as it is, is going to shift the balance of hunters-specs tremendously, and we’re going to be hard-pressed to argue against it.
But… but we’re hunters, not mana-batteries! WE kill stuff, not help rogues and furylols and death kniggets* kill stuff!
Why do we see this talent and feel sad?
Question 7: First off, can’t we just simply the equation, please, it looks stupid. Just average it, huh?
[RAP * 0.2 + 380]
Next, you poor Marksman are gonna whine and b!tch and moan and complain, but aside from the impressive videos that we’ve seen, notice that the durations is only two seconds. Our RAP is around 1900, so if we had this, we’d be doing:
[1900 * 0.2 + 380] = 380 + 380 = 760DPS for two seconds to every mob within 5 yards of the target, or 1520 total damage a piece. What’s that gonna kill at level 61 or higher? Not much. It will be great fun against Mount Hyjal trash, but it’s not so OP that it’s going to rewrite the arena record books. It’s a long distance and nitro’d Explosive Trap, that’s all, and uber-traps belong in the SV tree, not MM.
This talent is icing on the SV-cake, not the penultimate second-best* talent of the tree, which is Hunting Party.
* “Death Kniggets” is copywritten and protected by the vast armada of trial attorneys and blackjack-wielding “associates” at BRKWWA legal headquarters, in beautiful Brooklyn, NY. Bogarting “foshizzle” is one thing, trying to steal our “Death Kniggets” is gonna get you hurt. You’ve been warned.
** All these years, we’ve been incorrect in our definition of penultimate. That explains why we didn’t get 800 on our verbal SATs, finally. Unfortunately, we cannot find a better synonym for “second-best”. Your recommendation is encouraged.
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“This talent is icing on the SV-cake, not the penultimate talent of the tree, which is Hunting Party.”
Just out of curiosity, when you wrote this, did you mean it as literally as it seems to be? The tone of the sentence seems to imply that you think Hunting Party is the *ultimate* talent in the SV tree. “Penultimate” means “second to last,” however and, well, it *is* second to last in terms of the list’s order.
Just wondering.
That said, I think that talent means RLs are going to have to stop letting every last one of their BM hunters giggle and point at their chart-topping numbers and make *one* of us spec SV. The current feral-SV-BM-BM-BM party just gets better with that talent.
“Efficiency vs. Improved Tracking, we just don’t know the answer yet.”
My guess is Improved Tracking. They’re doing away with chain-potting in favor of innate mana-regen tricks, and *especially* with that SV hunter in the party, I think the ridiculous DPS advantage of that tracking talent is going to make it a necessity.
I agree with Prathi I think. Now that chugging pots seems to be behind us (theoretically) that extra 5% base damage – assuming you’re remembering to change what you’re tracking – is going to be much more useful than efficiency.
My only question about hunting party is whether its going to go raid-wide like other buffs are, or if its just party like the tooltip says. If it is just party, I have a feeling that more than 1 hunter in a 25 man will be asked to go SV. If it IS raid wide, then you really only need 1. Gotta say this reduces the need for shadow priests – I’m sure they won’t like that talent at all
My thought is that, if they implement a good system for switching out specs like they say they’re going to, I’d have a BM solo spec and a SV raiding spec that I’d switch between.
EDIT: Oh, and I totally agree that explosive shot belongs in SV. It really is just a ranged explosive trap. Great for AoEing low level content, but other than that nothing to write home about.
knigget is actually a french word invented by monty python O.o lol
unfortunately they already nerfed hunting party to have a 60% chance to restore on critical hit
Hunting Party was deemed too OP. Now nerfed to 60% chance, but still not bad if a SV hunter can get 40%+ crit. So what should we call a mana, energy, rage, RP battery? OP Battery?
Personally, I like “Furylol’s” better.
/agree, Prathi, BRK’s got himself an “inconceivable” notion of “penultimate” *grin*
Damn you for taking Death Kniggets BRK! I’ve been shouting that on my ooc channel since I knew the Death knight class was coming! DAMN YOU!
( thank you for the inspiration you made a BM hunter out of me (I’ll turn back to survival once I get a 3 speed bow! *cackles*))
Greetings Hrothar dwarven hunter – earthen ring eu
Sniper Training.
In the same tree that gives you bonuses to Dodge and Melee skills?
Lesse… a bonus to damage for staying out at max range and firing away with unerring accuracy.
Like… oh, I dunno… like a marksman one might say.
Good talent. Wrong tree.
#1: Will be in the standard BM raid dps build, definitely take over Efficiency
#2: The problem will be choosing this or aimed shot, to go with your BM build in arena (with BM with scatter shot 49/21/0, looking like the pvp build atm)
#3: Two minds on this one, our biggest problem is that warriors and rogues can SPAM their abilties, so doesn’t actually matter how long they last, so the change in this ability doesn’t really change our situation, we’re still going to be snared all the time.
#4: DPS talent in the SV tree, what is the world coming too:P
#5: If your build is SV/MM with this talent, serpent sting will do about 2150 dmg, with this ability, so should be somewhat viable to have in your rotation as it stands. But hopefully it will get a buff anyways. Maybe turn into a party buff, everyone gains 3% dmg on target with the sting on it.
#6: Definitely cool, but the 8sec cooldown is a pain.
#7: Its actually very cool shot, raid buffed SV hunter atm is about 3000 RAP, assumming 4000 in WoLK, that is 1180 per tick of explosive shot, every individual tick has a chance to crit, and its fire damage, so ignores armour. Its extremely cool.
[...] Colts News » News Questions ‘Bout SV2008-07-29 18:14:38At Peyton Manning of the line, puts his receivers. He looks awesome, in control, [...]
In reference to all parties who feel Sniper Training and Potent Venom are in the wrong tree…
Remember, Survival is the “Can’t Touch This” tree. MM is the “Fire and Forget” tree.
If you really want to be anal about which talents belong where, why not shift Serpent’s Swiftness to MM (since it’s all about increasing shot speed and such, and that’s a damage thing), take Efficiency from MM and give it to SV (since Survivalists are prepared), give BM the Killer Instinct skill (since they’re, y’know, beastly and stuff)…. I could go on about the so-called “misplacement” of skills.
Point is, it won’t all be perfect right now. It might not all be perfect by the time the whole thing comes out. And it will never really go the way you think it should.
To me, it makes sense with placement and such, and so what if you can’t get everything you want in one super-build? That’s the idea.
So what should you all do?
STOP WHINING!
Yeesh.
P.S. Hunting Party is… wait for it… just for the Party, not the raid. I agree with BRK, it is the bomb-diggity of the new SV tree, fo’shizzle. Explosive Shot makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside, and lets me channel my inner John Rambo, but Hunting Party is it.
Well, in my book, regarding an alternative to penultimate, second best is the first loser…
“But… but we’re hunters, not mana-batteries! WE kill stuff, not help rogues and furylols and death kniggets* kill stuff!
Why do we see this talent and feel sad?”
It’s a difference in perspective. I got sick and tired of the dps competitions and massive egos amongst BM hunters, so I decided to be a team player and boost the crap out of all physical damage dealers…. I went survival.
What I lost in personal dps is more than made up by the constant 375 attack power my mark and expose weakness provide the druids, rogues, warriors and other hunters.
It won’t show up in the WWS report attributed to me, but it makes a HUGE difference. If I ever go back to BM, my guildies may kill me.
Your walking, talking, always-on Berserker’s Call trinket… Pelides.
I realize this is not the right place, but I don’t have time for the forums any more, and I don’t want to bug you with an email, BRK, but…what happened to Orcapalooza?
Explosive Shot is very, very low on the list of stuff we’re going to whine and complain about, trust me.
Though that whole Devilsaur thing is trying really hard to entice me to join your camp
Did Hunting Party get nerfed back to 60% proc chance and then returned to 100% again? MMO Champion’s talent trees and Wowhead’s Wotlk pages still have it at 20%/40%/60%/80%/100%…
I believe what happened was Hunting Party was 100% chance to return X amount of goodies when you crit, but on a cooldown of every 8 seconds.
Now whats happened is that Hunting Party is a 60% chance to return X amount of goodies when you crit, but with no cooldown.
Needless to say, a survival hunter with a respectable amount of crit probably gains more from the new version as they can trigger consecutive Hunting Party buffs.
Always, always go for resist over reduced duration. Resisting a stun 30% of the time >>>>> resisting the stun 15% of the time and reducing all stun duration by 30%, as so few other people resist frost nova, etc.
With all due respect, I believe you are either misreading or misjudging Potent Venom. It’s worthwhile.
Potent Venom does not say that it increases the damage done by the sting by 3%; it increases your damage done to the target by 3%. That would be ALL OF YOUR damage, not just the sting’s damage. That includes if you do the heinous old tab-dot; then you are doing 3% more damage to three targets per multishot.
This game is, like Peyton’s football, a game of inches. A 3% damage buff is not something to shrug off. It’s roughly equivalent to a 3% hit or crit boost; it’s not bursty but it’s totally reliable.
And for what it’s worth, it makes Serpent Sting worth using as either or both of a damage boost and a cleanse soak in areans. It’s not a SEXY talent, but it’s decent.
I’m always shocked by survival hunters saying, “well I no longer show up in the meters anymore,” but I’m buffing the raid, so that’s all that matters. Having never been survival, I bought into that line of thinking, and, as the hunter officer in my guild, always just accepted that his buff was more important than his dps. However, he had to take a break, and I had built up a pretty decent survival offset (I now have 901 base agility before raid buffs) and I bit the bullet and specced survival…my dps was almost as good as it was while BM. Granted, as BM I topped the damage meters on 9/10 fights, but as survival, I’m still able to consistently pump out 1200+ dps on all bosses (with no shammy normally), and while I only top the meters about 1/4 of the time now, I’m still almost always top 3.
What I’m saying, don’t gimp yourself by buying into survival being a support class. Hunters are ALWAYS a dps class, survival hunter just happens to also help the raid. And for raid leaders, if you’re survival hunter isn’t pumping out msqrdps, tell them to shape up.
Before you get too excited about hunting party, you may want to consider the new potion sickness debuff that prevents you from consuming another potion untill you rest out of combat for a short duration. There is also a similar buff for Drums that places a 2 min debuff on your group so you can’t chain it until its cleared.
“What would you rather have: a 15% chance to avoid the Hamstring all together, or always reduce the Hamstring to 10.5 seconds?”
Spamstring has diminishing returns
Efficency? Are you mad? Please read the tooltip on Invigoration. Then read the tooltip on Cobrastrikes. See? Your mana’s all good.
Raiding speccs will be 51/15/5, or more probably 49/17/5 depending on the shittiness of Beast Mastery talent.
Improved tracking is just as good as the tier5 MMS talent Ranged Weapon Specialization. Sick.
Last I heard from the beta, Explosive Shot was ticking three times. Once immediately, then two more times over the next couple seconds. Of course, it’s really pretty buggy, threatwise: you only cause threat with the initial cast, which drops a debuff on all the targets you hit. The debuff then ticks for the damage threatlessly.
On Potent Venom: with Serpent Sting’s current scaling, it’s probably not worth the talent points. With each sting burning a global cooldown that could be a steady/kill/explosive shot you only come out slightly ahead. Or rather, you end up behind because those three talent points could’ve gone somewhere more substantial.
think of hunting party in a 5-person dungeon, or maybe even a 10-person raid if you are in the tank’s party. more rage/mana/runic power == more threat == you are free to deal even more of your MQoSRDPS.
/cast misdirect
/cast Explosive shot into tank area
/win
Quote
“Oh, and I totally agree that explosive shot belongs in SV. It really is just a ranged explosive trap. Great for AoEing low level content, but other than that nothing to write home about.”
First I will admit I would love to see this shot in the MM tree, not because it fits there, because I play there and I want that talent.
Now for the real bug-a-boo. This is not a ranged trap. Traps have 30 second cool downs. You can fire off 5 of these things in the time it takes one trap to set and go off.
what it means is now SV (shame not MM ;0) hunters can top out on damage on multi-targets like loc’s and mages. Think about it. you can thow up volleys, multi-shots and weave in explosive shots. Get yourself a pally tank that can AOE tank those mobs and you can go to town.
I am glad to see bliz try to even things out I’ve been a surv hunter sence pre-BC PVP gear =433 resilance 13k health and all I hear when I want an arena group is “go respec BM or MM”…with that said other than the edition of the spell resist to deterrence(which makes me think i might want that now) everything they’ve give is heavy PVE which is what we’ve always been with EW.
Imp tracking personaly I don’t know if I like over the current setup of giving us +3% damage to all for the right points now I’m guessing here but this will nerf our multi shot and volley in situations like MH and we’ll have to switch what we’re track’n between mobs(this sounds like a huge pain in the rump).
Surefooted=NEEDS HIT WITH THE NERF STICK, like lowering our hit cap isn’t enough.
Potent venom=something that should be in the MM tree like an extension of Imp stings in my oppinion.
Sniper training, zomg I’m drooling but in some fights I imagine it won’t be useable IE Gruuls lair trash….and PVP
Hunting party, I don’t wanna see it happen but this smells of getting a beat down by the nerf tree, if not Bliz might reach there goal to have more surv hunters in the game.
Explosive shot…yeah AoE not only for mele or MarksMen
Now what wasn’t mention was “Point of No Escape” this looks like uber for PVP but make me so hungry with curiosity ….WHAT IS BEAR TRAP GOING TO BE???!?!!!??
Frankly, I like the last of SV hunters for a few reasons:
1/ EW doesn’t stack. Bringing multiple SV hunters actually lowers the benefit of having the 2nd/3rd one there
2/ SV is gear dependent. To do well in personal dps while still boosting the raid’s dps with EW, you have to gear for it. and it’s not easy. Many will try, and fail, and not realize they could be doing much better than they are which in turn gives that whole “SV hunters do less damage” rep thing going on
3/ Who the hell expects Wyvern sting in arenas? I know all those healers who think they’re so smart after trinketing out of my trap think they’re set for a while … tell that to their dps partner.
I think the reason why Surv hunters get such a bad rap for DPS compared to our BM and marks brothers and sisters is a lot of surv hunters spec incorectly and don’t take readyness which for the love of god i’ll never understand:).
[...] can’t wait to make my Death Knigget. [...]
I don’t have readiness on live. I’ve tried the 0/20/41 spec and it just didn’t suit my playstyle. 7/20/34 has been much more effective for me.
As far as explosive shot goes, it’s outstanding in a 5 man with a prot pally tank. I need to play around with it further because when I tested it last time, mobs had no armor and as a result, the other hunter and I redefined jacking aggro. The steady shot non crits for 1600 were pretty funny. I apparently missed the bug too with dropping serpent sting on a mob for a 300% damage increase. Good times.
Thing is though, the explosive shot was hitting pretty regularly for the 800-1000 a tick range. I felt like a warlock with all the numbers flying up. It’s an absolute mana pig though.
Sniper training is another one I couldn’t use too extensively due to the aggro issues. There’s also how the dungeon setups are where you can really only pull it off about 25% of the time. Otherwise you end up within 30 yards.
Hopefully I’ll get some more time soon to play around with this stuff in a group setting.
The reason why I will always say readyness=GODMODE for surv hunter dps is this rapid fire early FD readyness rinse repeat …most boss fights are over 5 minutes long which means you will be able to do this atleast twice.
Movement impairing effects only last 10 seconds in PVP, so hamstring would become 7 seconds.