Haste and Steady Shot: We Try Again
Kill Shot has a 35 second cooldown. This is a shot that is not affected by Haste. You can pack 10 trillion Haste Rating, but Kill Shot cannot cooldown quicker than 35 seconds. Quivers, enchants, gear, nothing affects Kill Shot.
Steady Shot has a cast time of 2.0 seconds. This shot is affected by Haste, but the combination of a 15% Haste quiver and the Serpent Swiftness talent reduce the cooldown of Steady Shot to below 1.5 seconds for BM hunters. This is below the Global Cooldown, and that’s critical. What does this mean? Let’s fire off two Steady Shots and watch the timeline.
At T-0, you press Steady Shot. For us, it takes 1.41 seconds to cast. We did a small movie of us casting Steady Shot, capturing the castbar time, as you can see above.
At T+1.41 seconds, Steady Shot fires.
Now we have a small problem known as the Global Cooldown. The Global Cooldown restricts Steady Shot as to how fast in can be fired. The Global Cooldown is 1.5 seconds. So…
From T+1.42 to T+1.5 seconds, nothing happens. Global Cooldown rules are in effect.
At T+1.5 seconds, you are permitted to smash Steady Shot again. Steady Shot takes 1.41 seconds to fire. So…
From T+1.5 to T+2.91 seconds, you are “casting” Steady Shot.
At T+2.91 seconds, Steady Shot fires.
How long did it take for Steady Shot to fire its second shot? 1.5 seconds, the length of the Global Cooldown.
So what this means is that you can equip as much Haste Rating gear as you want, but Steady Shot cannot repeat more quickly than the Global Cooldown.
In other words, Haste Rating does not affect Steady Shot. It does affect it, as the cast time is reduced, but the rules of the Global Cooldown prevent Steady Shot from gaining any benefit from that reduction.
Does that make more sense now?
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33 Responses to “Haste and Steady Shot: We Try Again”
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I was just about to post a comment about that =D But this is why some people don’t like haste, because once you get to the point where steady shot is below 1.5 secs it doesent do very much for you, and most hunter gear, unfortunately has alot of haste.
Haste doesn’t have quite the value for all three specs, as said in the podcast.
It is roughly 65% for BM, about 90% for MM and about 70% for SV. Reasons being:
BM is GCD capped off the bat with a 15% quiver (standard for a level 70+ hunter) and the mandatory Serpents Swiftness talent. Steady Shot should come out to about 60% of your DPS in a run. It can vary. That’s called RNG.
MM isn’t (probably) GCD capped. Thus has a fuller use of the the stat. But why not 100%? Chimera Shot is an instant attack. The GCD for hunter’s isn’t effected by haste of any sort. Thus your removing 1.5s from your 10 second (roughly) rotation, aka (10 – 1.5) / 10 = .85 .
SV rotations vary. A LOT. Over a 30 second rotation: (30 – 2 * 1.5 – 5 * 1.5) / 30 = .65. Though because of Lock and Load procs for those who take it. It can be MUCH lower.
Wanna know the reason why you go up in percentages about 5? Because Not only is haste linear in the amount of shots you gain from it, but your more able to move and DPS smoothly. How so? Think Sartharion. When the lava (magma, whatever) comes. You need to move. Am I saying you can cast while you move? No. But, you can weave in a Steady Shot in between the GCD if you’ve met that cap.
Let’s elaborate. Your GCD functions on a 1.5 second rotation, but if your GCD capped, that spare time is essentially wasted if your just standing there. So if you are over haste capped, you have 1.5 – = So you’ve got a 1.4 second Steady Shot cast time. You have a tenth of a second to move. Lets elaborate more. You can move about a yard or two during that time span without stopping auto’s all together and almost zero DPS loss. Does this take practice? Yes. Are there any helpful tools? Many. Is this the best? Not always. But again think Sartharion. In a fight like that, you can do a balancing act of bouncing between waves, keeping a steady flow of Steady Shots and drop an Explosive Trap when your AOE needs help if your lucky enough to stay on Sartharion the entire time.
During personal tests I actually fit in more attacks during the “jig” and went a little longer before going oom. I lost about 150 DPS. I’ll say it again, RNG happened. The crit rates were different between the two. One attempt had 34% crit rate on auto’s while the next had 18%. They should be around 21%, but that’s testing data for you. The higher DPS had a 19.1% crit overall while the lesser had 17.95% crit (again overall).
All said and done. I wouldn’t advocate you taking any form of haste past GCD capped unless the item is an obvious upgrade. Just as I say to any MM hunter itemize with 90% of the value of hit rating to haste rating, percentage to percentage, when upgradeing until GCD capped as well if not before hit capped. Take all this for what you want. But haste isn’t worthless if you -make- it not worthless. Though it still remains conditional even with these choices. Test it out yourselves to see how Autoshots get “pushed” or “stalled” while moving if you don’t understand.
My 2 copper.
Yeah, if you have Serpent’s Swiftness.
You forget that there’s two entire trees out there that don’t have it, and staunchly saying that Haste doesn’t affect the cast time of Steady when it in fact does is extremely disingenuous.
As we said in the podcast, Haste for MM/SV is much better than for BM. It’s still not 100% always desirable, as the Global Cooldown affects every tree.
And we find the term “disingenuous” harsh. We did not do the best job of covering this subject in the podcast, that much we admit. However, it was never an attempt to deceive or deliberately misinform.
Sort of OT a bit… I stopped using a shot rotation macro for two reasons, because it was not as necessary when auto shot stopped clipping and because of my temporary issue with firing at a new target automatically when my target died mid rotation. That being said now I am manually firing steady shot but get annoyed at having to look at the bottom of my screen or the side to watch the global cooldown on my hotbars. I have an autoshot timer bar and timers for a bunch of other stuff out on my UI that I can see and still watch what is happening, but none of those seem to show the GCD. Any suggestions? Should I go back to a simple steadyshot macro or is there an addon that will give me a movable gcd timer?
soooo is there a cap for haste then for BM hunters? By cap i mean.. a point where haste is not useful for us anymore?
I thought that Haste also lowered the GCD. I know it was just Spell Haste, but since all the stats are combined now, shouldn’t haste also lower the GCD?
So basically if your BM don’t get gear with + haste on it because its pointless and other stats would help more. I also go by the well balanced hunter motto. Even if you pack the dmg if your dead it does not matter.
He said that BM talents will bring you to the global cool-down attack-speed with std shot. That makes me wonder the benefit of improved aspect of the hawk. I know with haste it directly affects your auto shot so you fire like a machine-gun, but when your smashing Std Shot that neutralizes the haste and only lets you fire in-between std shots. In theory if you could get enough haste you could fire two auto-shots in-between a Std shot, but I don’t think the game has the +haste gear to make it there.
So yea if your BM then stick with stats other than haste, because your haste will be neutralized due to GCD. Sorry if I made anyone cross-eyed
As for the other talent trees. Get all the haste you want just don’t go below the GCD.
If you’re really interested in the stats I suggest a visit to TKASomething (http://forums.tkasomething.com/) or Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/forums.php). What you are saying is absolutely true and there is plenty of work out there to support it. I like Arcazua’s simple AEP calculation at: http://forums.tkasomething.com/showthread.php?t=14185 since it gives you a quick and dirty answer (and probably pretty close to the truth for most of us).
No! Not any more. Auto Shot and Steady Shot are no longer linked. You can fire Auto Shots as fast as you can and it won’t affect your ability to fire Steady. They will neither clip nor clobber.
Haste for Auto works great!
Haste for Steady doesn’t work at all for BM, it’s good for MM, and kinda in between for SV.
This is why hunter t7 makes me cry. I’m a dedicated beast master and the two piece bonus is where I’ll get the most out of t7 but all. that. blasted. haste.
I think that we should also take into account the way aspect of the viper works.
If we, as BM hunters, have some haste gear and need to rapidly regen mana, popping rapid fire with the added haste will also help regen the mana that much quicker since it is based on your weapon speed and the number of shots you do. That way you regen faster and can switch back the the aspect of the dragonhawk and continue your heavy duty DPS.
haste also affects GCD, up to a max of 1s as such haste will also benefit BM hunters. i have tried stacking haste and found that my ss is not really affected by my GCD as my GCD is still lower then the caste time of my SS
Yeffertone, among other addons, Quartz will give you a bar that shows the Global Cooldown. It shows underneath the player castbar (there’s also a way to stop it snapping, I can’t remember how to move it once it’s unsnapped though).
And yeah, not a hunter myself (I play a protection paladin), but since melee haste = spell haste, it should reduce the GCD, should it not? At least until you reach a 1s GCD (which is a lot of haste… don’t know the level 80 figure off the top of my head).
Haste does decrase the global Cooldown from 1.5 to max 1. sec. So it is still useful if you have a good connection and reflexes
How well do Hunters scale in terms of item budget? I.e. comparing haste (if < 25% haste) and ArP against budget-equivalent amounts of hit, Agi, AP and crit.
No.
Where are people getting the idea that Haste affects the Hunter GCD? Not so! Never been so! And if they make it so, God help every other DPS class! Quoting Drysc: “…Haste will reduce the global cool down on spells, down to a minimum of 1 second. It won’t apply to melee and ranged abilities though however.”
That out of the way… Haste is not the best stat ever, you should not stack it for single-target DPS, sad face for too much Haste on gear, etc.
But! Haste does affect our white shots. That’s a chunk of change. And Volley! After a full night of Naxx, you know what my #1 damage spell is? Volley. No, it’s not useful on single-target boss fights, but hasted Volley is great stuff on trash and AoE encounters.
So no, do not stack Haste for BM, and stack Haste only if you understand the benefit you’re getting from it for MM or Surv (thanks to shot-weaving with Chim or Explosive, the value of Haste is a continuously varying number in each of those specs.) But don’t hate on Haste. It’s not useless to any Hunter. It will increase your DPS, especially on atypical encounters involving AoE or a lot of movement.
And no… it does not affect the GCD.
It varies, but it’s fair to say that for BM Hunters at reasonable gear levels, the current “order of things” for raid DPS is 1 hit (to cap) > 2 AP > 1 Agi > 1 Crit > 1 Int > 1 Haste. I intentionally did not include Armor Penetration; it’s an incredibly variable stat, dependent on the buffs/debuffs you’re dealing with in a raid setting and also on how much of it you already have. If you have zero, each point of ArPen is terrible, if you have 200, it competes with Crit Rating.
Many BM Hunters get upset when I tell them that 2 AP is now better than 1 Agility, since they were taught from birth to gem Agi/Agi/Agi. It’s true, though, thanks to the change in crit provided by one point of Agility. At level 70, each point of Agility provided 0.025% crit. Now, however, that same point of Agility provides only 0.012% crit – less than half. Combined with the ready availability of AP percentage buffs from now-viable TSA, Unleashed Rage, and elsewhere, two points of Attack Power now beat out one point of Agility for any spec that doesn’t include the Surv-tree Agility-dependent talents.
Before you dash off to regem, please keep in mind that I’m speaking about the relative stat values for a Hunter in average raiding gear right now. To find out for sure what’s best for your gear setup, use a tool like Cheeky’s or Rawr to really lay your gear out and figure out which stats you want to stack.
Item haste does not affect the GCD, as far as I can tell…it’s true.
HOWEVER…haste abilities (Heroism and Rapid Fire) do appear to reduce the GCD to 1 second while they’re active…or am I wrong and mistaken?
don’t forget that a steadyshot cast time below your GCD will, if you get it low enough, allow you to MOVE between Steadys, while using one every GCD.
That’s pretty hot.
Teaakius, you are unforetunately mistaken.
Neither ability has ever lowered the GCD, nor will they ever. That would be too powerful.
Raskolnikov, you can move yes, but how far can you move in 0.2 seconds? And can you manage it so you don’t mess up the next Steady, or Auto for that matter since Autos shoot at very irregular intervals compared to Steady. Getting Haste to move with isn’t great.
Hmmm… I’m starting to think about only going 4/5 in Serpent’s Swiftness, with all the haste gear flying around…
A logical path, but don’t forget that SS also decreases your pet’s attack speed and Haste won’t make up for your pet’s lost DPS.
**ATTENTION**
Haste only reduces the GCD for spells. Things like Holy Light, Fireball, Mind Flay, etc.
It DOES NOT reduce the GCD for melee/ranged abilities, like Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, etc.
Thought I’d clear that up.
Haste will always be useful for hunters. Just not as useful for bm hunters. Still affects white damage.
This post and its subsequent comments and discussions have been very helpful and informative to The Pike. The Pike thanks you all for teaching her a bit about haste because she has not spent a lot of time thinking about it yet. >.>
Captain Obvious to the rescue! Thanks for letting everyone know that has been known for ages and everyone with slightest reasoning ability could infer.
Now BRK PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE, for the love of everything holy, prot and ret, explain these retards why a lasercat, devilsaur or even the 51-pointer is a DPS loss compared to a cat/scorpid in 25man raid situation.
Point for point, haste is inferior to every other stat if you’re BM. So naturally Blizzard puts so much haste it makes MM not completely suck balls.
I don’t know how to quote someone.
-Nick s. “Attack Power now beat out one point of Agility for any spec that doesn’t include the Surv-tree Agility-dependent talents.”
I’m not sure if your talking about raid or solo dps, but I would argue that Agility is always better for raiding just because of BLESSING OF KINGS, 10% more is surely more than what ever +Atp you can stack with items. I don’t have my facts but I have raided with this motto and never been disappointed; Also this is as a BM raider and I would think that a MM would go for the +Atp gear. BoK is just too good with stats.
I love this thread so much good information thank you all. You have awnsered many puzzles that has fried my brain with all the variables that invole us hunters.
Sorry, but I must disagree with you. I am speaking of raid DPS, that’s what I do. I claim no authority for PvP or solo theorycraft. Consider the following.
In the days of yore, meaning BC, Agility was great! It gave Attack Power and just enough Crit that it was slightly better than 2 pure AP, even without the 10% Blessing of Kings buff. At certain gear levels, though, BM Hunters suddenly began to benefit more from AP for two reasons: one, our crit was already very high, and two, AP began to benefit our pet more than Agility. This was a sign of things to come…
Then we all leveled up to 80, each level bringing Agility’s contribution to our Crit % down. Now, Agility gives us less than half as much Crit % as it used to! Point-for-point, Agility is now worse than Attack Power when we’re just standing around in Dalaran, to be sure. What’s worse for our old friend Agility, though, and the thing that really puts 2 AP over the top, is that the Blessing of Kings buff now has counterparts for Attack Power that are not only just as good for our DPS, but also more likely to appear in a raid.
Unleashed Rage is 10% now, and do Enh Shammies crit? All the time! Trueshot Aura is 10% now, and guess what? MM is viable, so there are MM Hunters to be found in raids! Last but certainly not least, our new friends the Death Kniggets bring us Abomination’s Might, yet another 10% Attack Power buff. You only have to count on one of 5 specs to be present to get a 10% AP buff, whereas there must be a Paladin with Improved Blessing of Kings in the raid to get that Kings buff… and that Paladin has to be giving you Kings instead of Might. And if that Paladin does give you Might, those 10% AP buffs put 2 AP entirely beyond the reach of Agility % buffs
What really upsets people, though, is this… unless you have a very high Agility : AP ratio, going into a raid with Kings and no 10% AP buff still leaves 2 AP slightly ahead. Agility has been nerfed by leveling that much.
@ Nick S
As BRk would say…. balance. AP and Agi in the right balance. What the balance is, is the question. For gear, we mostly have to take what we get, as items that are an upgrade we don’t have a lot of choice with. The choice comes with enchants and gems… AGI or AP?.. but, if you gem and enchant for AP, you are gonna have to get the crit someplace else…
@ Nick S
We needed 5 red gems to get 1% crit at 70. We need 5 red gems to get 1% crit at 80. The only change is that blizzard’s “new” itemization (and lowered metagem requirements as a direct result) makes it impossible to stack so many red gems.
Agility hasn’t been nerfed by leveling, it’s been nerfed by itemization and blizzard’s new haste fetish (Not ONE of any best-in-slot item is t7.10/.25 for a BM, Gee.).
So get a clue before posting.
I just want to thank BRK for clearing this up.
I have tried to explain to a fury warrior buddy over and over that I didn’t really want haste; I didn’t really understand it yet myself; I’d only gotten as far as “it doesn’t help steady shot” and “all the cool hunters are saying it.”
This post spelled it out very simply.
I’m learning towards ap, crit, and armorpen instead of more haste when given the option, but don’t hate the haste on hunter gear; as has been stated, it will increase your white damage. This may be chump change compared to if it lowered the GCD for SS, but then again we’d be overpowered DPSes if that happened. The haste that comes along with gear anyway doesn’t hurt you; it just won’t make you superman.
I think one of the reasons that people think haste lowers the GCD is that thanks to my latency, i occasionally see the GCD start at 1.3 secs. that’s my .2 second latency, not my haste rating. It took me a lot of time and testing to figure that out.
I have also seen some numbers on QQpewpew suggesting armor pen also declines in value as armor pen effects stack on the target. For example, a warrior applying sunder armor will reduce the boss’s armor, and this will stack with your own armor pen. Since your armor pen is on the rating system now and percentage based it actually looses some of its effectiveness as other armor reducing effects are applied.
The wise hunter will clear bank space and keep various gear pieces of similar level till the community can determine for sure how much haste and armor pen we really need. For now, I’m sticking to the old standbys of agi, ap, and crit as primary focus.
Ralowae and BlackTooth, Zangarmarsh