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Tweaking for Fun and Profit

BRK » 26 December 2008 » In Gear, Stats »

tech‘Dear BRK, I have noticed that a lot of BM hunters are cramming Attack Power gems in to their gear. Even going so far as to cram Red Gems in Blue sockets thus ignoring the bonus stats. Where [do] you to stand on this?”

In BC, there was extremely little debate that Agility-gems were far and away the best stat for gems for BM-hunters. However, in WotLK, there has been some discussion that RAP is a better bang-for-the-buck, point-for-point stat than Agility. And the thinking is that Blizzard is intentionally nudging us in that direction.

In BC, there were two exception enchants for hunters’ 2h weapons: +35 Agi and +70 Attack Power.

Bam, WotLK comes out, and the new enchants for 2h weapons are: +85 Attack Power, and +110 Attack Power. So what happened to the new +Agi enchants for 2h weapons? Nobody knows, but it certainly seems logical that +110 RAP is better than +35 AGI, so the theorycrafters bought their enchants and started testing just how much better.

They liked what they saw. They liked it so much that they started wondering what if they started replacing their Agi gems, not with new Agi gems, but with the AP/Crit and pure AP gems. They cranked their calculators and now some believe that the current models of hunter-DPS favor eschewing Agi for AP. When a meta-gem is involved, they’ll slap in an AP/Crit gem, but for the most part, AP-gems are being touted by some as the new Best BM Gems, even to the point of ignoring socket-bonuses.

What concerns us is that these models are not including pet-DPS. We’re not saying that it would be easy to do this. Quite the contrary; it would be a massive project to determine which pet scales with AP and which doesn’t, at which point Focus-generation is more important than damage-per-hit, and other variables we won’t list. But we do know that a pet scales with his hunter, and a BM hunter’s pet is doing 40-50% of the total DPS-combination, so leaving the pet out of the equation throws some serious doubt into this discussion.

A BM hunter’s RAP contributes to his pet’s stats thus:

1 RAP creates 0.22 pet Attack Power
1 RAP creates 0.1287 pet Spell Damage

So when we stack AP-gems, we similarly increase the power of our pet. Well that rocks! A +32 AP gem will increase our pet’s damage per hit more than a +16 Agi gem, obviously.

But there’s a counter-balance; AP does not contribute to Crit, whereas Agi does. How does Crit help? Of course, every time we Crit we do more damage than a non-Crit. But also, if we have the Go For The Throat talent, we generate Focus for our pet. It doesn’t matter how much damage a pet will do from his special attack, if he has no Focus, he can’t cast it.

We want a high RAP to do more damage per shot for ourselves and or pet.

We want a high Crit to do more damage per Crit for ourselves, and to generate Focus for our pet so he can use his special spells.

If we focus exclusively on ourselves and don’t include our pet in our equations, we believe that stacking AP may indeed produce better DPS results than the tried-and-true Agi-standard of BC. However, we have not seen studies that take pet-Focus and DPS into account. For example, Focus-saturation should be mentioned; the point where GftT cannot supply more Focus than a pet can use is important to that discussion. The details of this study would be great in number.

But even disregarding the entire pet-dynamic and only concentrating on hunter-DPS, the math we’ve seen shows that the gains from AP over Agi are small; they are observable but nothing ground-shaking. As we’ve all seen, the instances in WotLK do not require min-maxing in any significant quantity; the quality of the player is much more important than and additional 10-20DPS from gem-tweaking.

Let’s make some reasonable statements so you have some guidance:

If your crit is really low, consider sticking with Agi-gems to get that Crit back up. You’re probably Focus-starving your pet and hurting your DPS.

If your Crit is really high, consider transitioning to AP-gems and make those regular and crit-shots hurt more. Your pet will love the extra AP, too.

Bottom Line: If you show up to your raid sporting Agi-gems, you’re fine. If you decide to follow the Elitist Jerks and swap everything for 10,000 gold in AP gems, we’re not going to say you’re wrong either. If you like socket-bonuses — we admit to being a socket-bonus fan — or you choose to stack AP and ignore the bonuses, either is acceptable.

But if you start slamming Spirit and Strength, then we’re gonna have a problem and hunter-licenses shall be pulled.

Gear, Stats | December 26, 2008

Comments

20 Responses to “Tweaking for Fun and Profit”

  1. The Slightly Less Elitist Jerk on December 26th, 2008 12:56 pm

    I’ve yet to encounter focus saturation on a normal boss fight. In fact, with the -4.8% crit depression on raid bosses, I believe it will take Loathebspore-esque levels of crit% where pet GCD and family skill cooldowns actually become a detriment.

  2. Darksentinel on December 26th, 2008 1:51 pm

    Nice, much-needed post.
    One additional point: 32 AP gems are selling for about 40g on Aman’Thul, and 16 Agi gems for 120-150 (simply because one is a trainer taught recipe, the other costs 3 Jewelcrafting tokens).

  3. fearstalker on December 26th, 2008 1:59 pm

    GAAHH post eaten again!!!!

    Anyway, what should be noted here is the amount of crit from AGI. The amount of Crit you get at lvl 80 from 1 AGI is far less that what you get from 1 AGi at lvl 70. (Something like half as much, don’t have the numbers handy). So, now 2 AP is indeed better than 1 AGI.

    You are better off getting AP/Crit gems to boost your Crit because of this. The lvl 80 gear has gobs of AGI, but we need to boost AP and Crit, so gem for that.

    So if you are hit-capped, gem for AP and Crit. Also consider enchants that give Crit. Icewalker for boots is really good for that, plus you get Hit as well.

    Stacking AGI in large amounts beyond what you get from gear is going to leave you with a much lower Crit rate at 80 then gemming for AP/Crit instead.

  4. fearstalker on December 26th, 2008 2:03 pm

    (Edit button not working…)

    Can you gem for AGi/Crit in some sockets? sure. AP/Hit or AGI/Hit if you need the +hit as well.

    But don’t expect the same levels of Crit from AGI that you used to get at lvl 70. The scaling has changed that.

  5. Fatal on December 26th, 2008 2:12 pm

    Personally i just balance it out a bit. Some AP, some Agi, some crit, and as much hit as i can get (capped now, woot).

    I’d definatly try to get the socket bonusses, as long as they aren’t +haste

    *looks at his heroes gauntlets*

  6. Felandra on December 26th, 2008 2:20 pm

    Overall the crit we gain from Agi gems is quite limited. The AP from AP gems is however not as limited. It sounds backwards I know, but it’s the truth.

    If you have 6 gemslots (not counting the Meta) then pure Agi will give you a grand total of 1.15% crit. Obviously it will be less due to meta requirements. You would have to be pretty low on crit before that little increase is worth the GftT increase.

  7. Ossuary on December 26th, 2008 2:33 pm

    FYI alot of the socket bonuses are not worth it, you have to use your own brain when determining this stuff, i’ve seen hunters gem weird stuff into 2 socket armor just to get a 4 stam socket bonus, when the better plan would have been to ignore 4 stam and just go 2×32 ap gems there, not all socket bonuses are worth it, please keep that in mind, just because it has a socket bonus, doesn’t make it worth gimping a gem just to get it.

  8. Willstream on December 26th, 2008 2:54 pm

    One of my hunters is an engineer (yes I have more than 1) so those + Stam socket bonuses have helped me stay alive long enough to FD on a wipe and “overload” my Goblin Army Knife. My gems are a balance of Agi AP Crit and Hit. And at 80 with only Heroic gear and lower I’m pushing 2k+ DPS with approx 30% crit (according to Recount)

  9. Strege on December 26th, 2008 3:54 pm

    No matter how you get it crit is always nice. You only mentioned Go for the Throat, but there are a few other places where crit helps out. Depending on your spec; Cobra Strikes, Marked for Death, Expose Weakness, Thrill of the Hunt, Hunting Party, and of course Mortal Shots. There is also the proc from Mirror of Truth which most raiding hunters get as soon as they can. As usual the key is balance. No matter how much ap you have, if you’ve only got 15% crit your dps will take a beating.

  10. Deekow on December 26th, 2008 4:04 pm

    “If your crit is really low, consider sticking with Agi-gems to get that Crit back up. You’re probably Focus-starting your pet and hurting your DPS.”

    Normally not a human spell-checker, but for the sake of clarity, should that have been “You’re probably Focus-starving…”?

  11. Teaakius on December 26th, 2008 5:24 pm

    I’m only 1/2 GftT in my current spec, sitting between 25-30% crit…I’m watching my pet’s focus bar and it never seems to drop below 20 during the boss fights, with it usually sitting above 50…

    Granted I’m not watching it every fight nor all the time, but the few times I -am- watching it, focus starvation isn’t that big of an issue for me.

  12. Anonymous on December 26th, 2008 6:32 pm

    It’s worth noting that 1 agi is still better than 2ap for a survival build (which may turn out to be THE post-patch hunter PVE build, unless they nerf explosive shot before launch.)

  13. Jotun on December 26th, 2008 7:00 pm

    I really believe it is like u said a couple of post before:

    being a Bm hunter is all about balance

  14. D on December 26th, 2008 8:45 pm

    I just stack AP mindlessly, crit is slowly climbing from item upgrades. About 3900 AP and 28% crit.

  15. Kliu on December 27th, 2008 1:09 am

    I was under the impression agi was better not because of how it scales alone but in a raid. When you have blessings of kings more then likely that it really was better then your standard ap gems because it scaled or some such? Am I off the mark here?

  16. Anonymous on December 27th, 2008 2:20 am

    @ Kliu,

    Even with BoK Agility is not better than AP. I did a lot of calculations and found in all cases AP was better than Agility. Of course like BRK said, this did not take into account if your pet is focus starved, or have cobra strikes. The reason agility has fallen so low is because it takes 83.33 agility to = 1% crit, where it used to be 40. A 10% increase in agility is not going to make a difference here when we need 100% to get back to the old scaling level. Also there are several buffs like TSA which increase Attack Power by 10%. I would much rather have 10% more of a 32AP gem than 10% more of a 16 Agility gem.

    I found myself focus starved when i was below 20% crit. Now that I am at 23% I find that i am never empty, although it still could be a little better. My feeling is that 25% will prob be the minimum crit level for focus filled pets. In a raid with a feral druid this shoudnt be a problem.

  17. Lontra on December 27th, 2008 11:03 am

    Thank you Anonymous, I was about to ask what a good crit percentage to aim for was.

    I understand BRK that you are trying to keep down on the “but you said X was good to have…” business but a list of rough target values would be nice for those of us who know our job as a hunter but don’t have a clue when it comes to our gear.

    Thank you,

    Lontra of Stormreaver

  18. Doom on December 27th, 2008 12:09 pm

    after reading the initial discussions on the EJ forums regarding crit/ap gems, i spent quite a bit of time tweaking gear and gemming options in the hunter dps spreadsheet they provide. if i were to replace all of my agi gems with ap gems, id gain about 4 dps…at the cost of almost 400 gold. noooooooo thanks.

    in my paperdoll experiments (attack dummys in IF), with 2/2 bestial discipline and 2/2 GFTT, 28-30% crit seemed to regen just enough focus that my pet was always topped off. this leads me to believe that once non-variable gear stat contributions give a hunter a baseline of roughly 30% crit, ap gems will start to really pull away from agi gems as far as dps per point is concerned.

  19. Kliu on December 27th, 2008 12:15 pm

    Thanks BRK, and to you too Anon and Doom.
    Now at least I’ve a general idea what to tweak when I re-gem from greens. :)

  20. Aodie on December 29th, 2008 2:48 pm

    We all know that all around the board Blizzard is re-vamping itemization. It’s a good thing IMO, but obviously means players will need to make the adjustments. My guess is Blizzard would ultimately like a good piece of mail gear to be perfect for a hunter or an enhancement shaman - barring any obvious class set bonuses of course.