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Email icon provided by Nexodyne.
“Cold” as in below zero as it is in Duluth, MN? …riiiiiiight. Enjoy your warm weather.
Yay buffage. I’m a little disappointed at seeing the Engineering Nitro Boosts getting 3 seconds knocked off of their time. I like my little “Oh Shoot!” button. Its great fun off of cliffs with a parachute. Eat Dust Clouds Jerks!
Finally, some BM love again! LOL
I ran with a Surv spec for a while last year (maybe 3 months?) and quite enjoyed it but switched back to BM before the Wrath release.
Have quite enjoyed BM to this point and now, Love is in the air again!
Thanks BRK for always having a great blog!
I’m not so sure this is exactly a “buff”, in the light of a massively nerfed Steady Shot, Serpent’s Swiftness, Kindred Spirits and Unleashed Fury. Tacking a bit of extra Arcane Shot damage onto FI seems a bit weak by comparison. BM is about the pet, so why nerf so many pet-specific talents to give us a tiny, sometimes-available, shot damage increase?
From all of the changes, it’s pretty clear that Blizzard wants the the rotation to be Serpent Arcane Steady Steady Steady Steady aArcane steady steady etc… Combined with the decrease in the cost of Arcane Shot, it’s also clear to me that this is a parity change after seeing the Steady Nerf was too big.
It is a small bit of frosting on an otherwise bitter cake.
/cry
My GM has specced away from BM and says he is never going back, even released a couple of pets. Me, I am BM forever, and the Spirit Beast only reinforces my choice.
This is awesome- (yes tiny in comparison but we really did need something to do other than spam steady/KC so i’m ok with it.)
The bad part is that they’re cutting Loque’s damage in HALF!!
/gasp
/cry
/whimper
/console Loque
WHY? It’s my thinking that if you’re spending extra points on Pet DPS that you could otherwise be spending on shot dps, then you should get it. yes yes even things out, it’s only fair, but Exotic pets should have superior damage to normal ones logically- otherwise who would bother with the extra effort in taming them? /sigh
Kunukia said:
“It is a small bit of frosting on an otherwise bitter cake.
/cry”
Yes! It’s like a tasty, tasty boiled icing put on a crappy old fruit cake. It looks delicious but then you find out what’s inside and it’s so disappointing.
“Me, I am BM forever, and the Spirit Beast only reinforces my choice.”
I know, I’ve become quite attached to my Spirit Beast as has my wife, and she looks at me aghast when I mention thinking of respeccing to Survival. I may not be allowed to respec….
Vix, where did you see the bit about cutting damage in half for Spirit Beast? What I’d read indicated buffs - applying the proper Ferocity pet damage mod, fixing the Spirit Strike/Longevity cooldown and making Strike able to crit. I’ve seen nothing regarding a nerf.
From MMO- Undocumented changes found in the PTR (which are usually right.)
I have no words for this tragedy. All I can do it /sadpanda
-From MMO Champion-
Hunter (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)
Beast Mastery
* Ferocious Inspiration now also increase the damage of Arcane Shot by 3/6/9%
Survival
* Lock and Load now has a 30 seconds cooldown.
* Explosive shot damage has been slightly decreased and now deal {RAP*0.16+428}-{RAP*0.16+428} Fire damage at level 80. (Down from {RAP*0.18+476}-{RAP*0.18+476})
Marksmanship
* Improved Stings now reduces the chance your Sting damage over time effects will be dispelled by 10/20/30%. (Old - Affected all stings)
Pet
* Spirit Strike (Spirit Beast) damage has been decreased and now Burns the enemy for 49 to 65 Arcane damage and an additional 49 to 65 damage over 6 sec at max rank. (Down from 85 to 115)
* Rake (Cat) damage has been increased, now deals 47-67 (Up from 24-34) bleed damage and an additional 19-25 (up from 10-24) damage over 9 seconds at max rank.
* Scorpid Poison damage has been increased. (From 45 to 100 Nature damage over 10 sec for the last rank)
It’s a static increase to Arcane, not dependent on FI’s uptime.
*has been spending way too much time on the PTR*
Whatever they do, it still blows. If they’re truly putting BM, SV and MM on par with each other, FANTASTIC. But I have a very ominous feeling that BM is about to become #2 or 3 in the hunterdom pecking order, and it rankles. It makes SENSE that BM provide the most DPS, a team is always greater than the sum of it’s parts, and while MM and SV both use pets, only BM places a priority on teamwork with said pet. Even more offensive is the idea that mages, warlocks and any other DPS spec build you care to name will now not only provide more buffs and utility to groups, but DPS that’s on a par or that even surpasses what we hunters can provide. There’s a very real perception that hunters (and our pets, specifically) can cause wipes, more so than any other class. Now we not only 1. Don’t provide top DPS, but 2. we provide almost no utility (at least that’s the perception, and apologies to any survival hunters who feel their utility is important, but generally speaking, I don’t find this to be the case) and 3. we have this dumb*** pet with us that has a higher potential to cause wipes! Thanks Blizz, for making our class about as unattractive for us to play as possible. Put us on par with other DPS classes from a DPS-perspective, gimp us for PVP, saddle us with very little usefulness to buff other classes, and call it good. I have to admit, I’m curious how much less DPS our pets will be doing post-patch, if it’s as significant a reduction as I fear, buffing arcane shot by 9% isn’t going to NEARLY cover the difference, NEVERMIND the steady shot nerf.
I’ve been using arcane shot a lot more recently. I monitor my crits and if arcane crits higher than steady….. I’ll use it in a rotation on that boss. I’ve always assumed that some bosses just naturally have more arcane resistance than others, making it sometimes none-efficient to use arcane shot.
Could just be stupidity.
Yeah, its not a buff until we are back where we were from the last two major hunter nerfs …
Wow.
That’s a pretty big boost: Coupled with Improved arcane shot, that should make a pretty big bang.
And if it’s a constant buff like what Rilgon is saying, then it’s goign to become an important glyph for PvP too I think. A constant boost to one of our more important kite shots is a nice idea… so long as there’s still room for a major glyph in there.
You know, BM has been completely dominant in terms of hunter specs for years. YEARS. Is it really such a soul-crushing tragedy that another spec might get some time in the sun? If you really love BM, you’ll still be able to compete with it, but don’t you guys think you could at least save the tears until after we see how the nerfed BM performs on live? :\
/golfclap Blizzard. This is one hell of a sad attempt at fixing BM spec… And for all you guys thinking of going SV once the patch hits… L&L is locked behind a 30 sec CD now -.-
Does Blizzard really hate us? I should think so. Albeit, they didn’t obliterate the Mirror of Truth like many thought, which is damn fine seeing as 40 badges for a useless trinket would suck =/
Gee, I wonder what that would be like. /sarcasm
I levelled Marks, and switched to BM around 60. I’m reserving judgement until ibsee how things shake up in Live, but eight now we are B.R.O.K.E.N. Other classes catch up at the higher gear levels, but when in crafted/rep gear the only people who can beat me on the dPS meters are Naxx geared, something is not right.
BM seems to be headed back to where it was a couple of years ago, to the “why the heck would you spec that?” Hunter talent tree.
And really, when I look at the collective nerfs I’ve got to wonder just what is BM going to offer? What does Blizzard see the purpose of the spec being?
Regarding the Spirit Strike nerf, I *think* that while the damage has been reduced, it can now crit, whereas before it was not eligible for critical hits. So perhaps that’s why we see the damage reduction. Even still though that’s pretty sad. I keep looking at what the Gorilla’s Thunderstomp does and wonder why that doesn’t get nerfed. A DPS pet should be dishing out the damage, particularly an exotic one, but they pull a Ferocity pet’s damage back and let a Tenacity pet run rampant with the damage. Seems odd to me.
At any rate, the fact that new items keep popping up on this patch suggests it’s going to be a while before Blizz is ready to make this thing live, they seem to be wandering around not sure what to do with what at this point.
It would suck. Seriously, consider this from a purely realistic point of view:
BM reduces hunter output, increases pet output, so that the whole (reasonably) becomes more than the sum of its parts.
MM and SV emphasize hunter output and utility, respectively, at the expense of similarly buffing the pet, sort of like the “Twins” approach to character creation, with the pet being Danny Devito, in this case.
If you promote all around fitness, you’re going to be much stronger than if you focus on one part at the expense of another. It makes SENSE that BM would produce as it traditionally has, and the SV and MM, while allowing the hunter to make greater use of their abilities, would see less production from their pet. Now Blizz has taken the stance that all talent trees should be equal, essentially nerfing BM pets so they’re a sort of 1/2 upgrade over standard pets, as opposed to the real thing. Where’s the motivation for being a BM if that’s the case? I suppose it’s the same as it’s always been to be MM, or SV, til the patch.
If I’m being a little hypocritical, I do apologize, but to me, gimping BM and then tossing some sorry-a** arcane shot buff at us like it means anything isn’t particularly attractive nor helpful. I don’t wish for debuffs to other classes (or even specific pet types, as some others may), I just want my preferred spec to make sense, and right now it doesn’t seem like that will be the case.
Yeah, and I want my preferred spec and pet to not be a significant (i.e. upwards of a thousand DPS) penalty to my own output.
So sorry that you don’t consider that to be fair.
OK, correct me if I’m wrong but BM has traditionally been the dps spec, MM has been the PvP spec, and SV has been the raid utility spec. All of these specs excel in one a particular arena, without preventing them from doing “Okay” in the other two.
A BM hunter can still trap and TBW is VERY useful for PvP, but they still aren’t”optimal.” A SV hunter, in my experience, is always a welcome addition to the raid and is never expected to top the dps charts, while being a formidable and frustrating opponent in PvP. And finally a MM hunter can trap and contend for chart topping dps.
My point is that every spec excels at something, but is never useless because of their spec. From what I’ve been reading it seems the changes coming in the impending patch will make BM hunters not excel at anything. They won’t be the best at PvP, dps, or utility (trapping, mana regen, etc.) At best I see this becoming a purely leveling spec.
I don’t want to be the huntard with a useless spec. I want to be able to at least explain my reasoning to my GM for choosing to take the spec that I love. Right now I don’t spec SV because I am our top guild dps and I contribute more from that than I would being a mana battery. I am not MM because they don’t do maximum dps. I also happen to love the play style. I don’t want to be a SV hunter, but if it turns out that I will contribute both utility AND max dps then I cannot, out of fairness to my guild, deny them that boost.
If you’re still reading this, my point is that we all excel in some way or another, and other classes realize this. No one wants to group with a huntard, but by nerfing BM in this way, Blizz is going to make every BM hunter into a huntard in the eyes of the lesser classes.
Again, correct me if I’m wrong and sorry for any typos, it’s 4:42AM =D
Happy Hunting
Okay?
And what does that mean for those of us who abhor PVP?
@Rilgon:
“And what does that mean for those of us who abhor PVP?”
Assuming that the OP is right - that you are a square peg that chose a round hole and is now agitating for a general hole-shape change to accommodate you?
It’s a nice change but a change that really doesn’t make much sense to me. I do know though that I’ll most likely be taking the 3/3 out of Imp. Stings and put it into Imp. arcane shot. I’ve been playing around with my rotation lately and what I’ve found was opening with serpent sting then following with arcane then steadying three times, then using arcane again (I have a bit of haste because the gear was an upgrade so I do end up clipping my arcane cooldown) has increased my dps but at the cost of blowing through my mana pool (Just clocking in at a hair over 10k unbuffed in my current gear) after about three rotations. So the time I spend in viper counteracts the dps I gained so I went back to just spamming steady and refreshing serpent before it drops off. Boring, boring boring.
I don’t think he meant anything by it, it was just a generalization and the overall consensus amongst the hunter community. (I’m well aware that not everyone holds the same view. I disagree with that as well.)
Blasted edit.
I knew something wasn’t adding up in my post and I figured it out. My rotation was serpent, arcane, steady ,steady, arcane… not what I stated originally. Something wasn’t sitting right as I posted and the double check of the math in my head confirmed it.
I think we missed the most important question of this post… why is BRK writing blog posts when his poor kid’s trying to learn to ride a bike!?
lol
And…as stated, How can BRK possibly be cold in Florida?
Bluespruce and the Beast in frozen Wisconsin…
What Robin Levett said.. and you did it KNOWINGLY, which as we’d point out in my family, leaves you no room to complain.
So you macro in Arcane Shot and get a 9% damage boost on a single shot in your rotation… yay?
The alt-leveling continues.
Here may be some new info for everyone who thought mm was the “traditional” pvp spec, it was king of pre-bc pve dps. So when rilgon says that he wants mm to have comparable (note comparable not a mile above the rest like bm has been for years) he isn’t being a “square peg in a round hole”.
Stop thinking that there has to be one spec to rule them all. Blizzard is trying to get rid of that, those days are over (or hopefully will be soon, don’t know how much I trust blizzard). Yes there will always be a top dps spec (it might not even be bm, oh noes) but hopefully every spec will be close enough that you won’t hurt your raid too much by specing the way you want.
I believe what Rilgon is getting at is Blizzard’s new direction to talent trees.
They want every tree to be viable for everything.
Making the “BM = PvE, MM = PvP, Surv = Black Sheep” argument is a crock.
That’s not the case anymore, and I suggest that everyone begin to get used to it.
I think that it’s a good idea to do this, as it makes for player variety and allows people to play what they want, not what they have to. “Bring the player, not the class.”
I don’t like playing MM as much as I like playing BM, so I should have the option to choose. So should Rilgon, who’s a Marksman by trade. So should anyone who wants to play Survival.
@Klinderas:
Fine; but they haven’t done that; they’ve nerfed BM’s DPS and buffed MM’s DPS. BM gets no extra utility elsewhere. The BM tree is not, in this scenario, “viable for everything”. MM, by ciontrast, gets back to thetop if the DPS tree and retains its PvP utility.
Or, alternatively:
“MM, by contrast, gets back to the top of the DPS tree and retains its PvP utility.”
@ Rilgon - Your gloating and glee over the BM soon-to-be-wasteland is really pissing me off, and you along with the evil BM hating Angry Butterfly would make it extermely hard for me to ever spec MM, even if it might wind up the highest damage.
We know you MM types really hate BMers, especially the MM bloggers, and it’s really annoying.
If a 51/20 spec getting improved arcane still doesn’t make BM viable after the nerfage, then I’ll just hang up my hunter until 3.1, and see what that brings.
Rilgon, you’ve made it certain that I won’t go MM. I’d delete my hunter first. Hope you’re satisfied that you’ve chased a hunter away from even trying MM. (Well, you had some help from the Butterfly bitch as well).
Am I the only one that now (i mean, on live) does Serpent Sting - Arcane Shot - Multi shot - Steady Shot and then wait for AS and MS cooldowns while doing more Steady Shots?
I don’t know, I like it and it’s way less boring than doing Steady, Steady, Steady, Steady, etc
Only reason I’d be slow to add Multi-shot to my rotation is I’m not sure where it’s damage per mana is post-patch yet. Live, Arcane shot weaved in will slightly increase your dps, but the trade-off is such a mana drain that you’re better off not trying to use it.
One bug fix does not a DPS buff make.
If you’re too ignorant to see the difference between wanting equality between the specs and some sort of perceived “hatred”, then nothing of value would be lost to the Hunter class.
@ Rilgon
“And what does that mean for those of us who abhor PVP?”
Don’t use a spec for something it isn’t meant for.
@Admin
“traditionally” was a poor choice of words. Would “post-TBC” work better?
@Klinderas
MM used to be dps king pre-TBC. It isn’t at the moment. But it IS PvP king.
BM will NOT be dps, PvP OR utility king. Which equals worthless.
SV will be both dps AND utility king. Which is over powered.
This is the opposite of “Bring the player, not the class.” It means that BM hunters will not be useful. According to the “Bring the player, not the class.” concept I should be able to spec for all 3 of these areas (DPS, PvP, and utility) in any tree while retaining the play style of each. While this would be optimal, it is not what Blizz is doing.
@fearstalker
…
This is a PVE game first and foremost. Basing your decisions off of PVP is failure of the highest degree, and I pray with every fiber of my essence that you quit and go play Warhammer so WoW can be left to those of us who want a good PVE game.
@Rilgon
See… that’s the same smug condecending attitude and general hatred that really pisses me off. I’m just really sick of it.
I remember you whining on your blog about how the bad BMs told you your spec wasn’t meant for PVE, and how you quit the game for 6 months or so.
What you fail to realize, is that instead of your “I’m glad BM is getting nerfed, it’s time for another spec to be superior” attitude, you would be a LOT better off saying “Come on over, come on in, the water’s fine…”, and you might even get some of us to try MM.
But, your statements are all about “It’s time for another spec to be superior”, and that’s just going to piss people off. And has.
So go play with the Angry Butterfly..
@fearstalker: Whats with the hate? a hunter is a hunter is a hunter regardless of spec choice. Rilgon is a scholar and a gentleman
Fearstalker,
I must respectfully disagree with you, good sir. Rilgon and Neg (aka the Angry Butterfly) have been nothing but very sympathetic and supportive to me throughout the BM nerfs. They know what is like to play a spec that is getting/has been nerfed and I have not gotten any negative vibes from them, personally.
Then again, perhaps I am biased, as I love all hunters <3
And what you fail to realize is that I do NOT have that attitude.
I’ve said it time and time again - my goal for the class is equality amongst all specs. It is possible, but Blizzard seems to be either incapable or unwilling. But no, I hold no real animosity, hatred, or ill will towards any spec. People that play the spec? Sure, because of the sheer numbers of fly-by-night, flavor-of-the-month, BC-Baby Beast Masters from BC with no actual empathy towards other members of their class; their posts laden in vitriol, lashing out at anyone that dared deviate from The Holy 41/20. Those are the people I hate.
I don’t hate intelligent, dedicated, and passionate Beast Masters. Pike, Mania, BRK, they all have something in common - they’re Beast Mastery because it’s who they are. I don’t wish ill upon the tree because doing so wishes ill upon them. I wish for equality - if Blizzard sees that fit by lowering the one statistical outlier (50/21/0 with Scorpid) down to everyone else’s level, so be it. I’ve outcried MANY of the nerfs on the forums - I think that aside from the KS/UF nerfs, the nerfs to BM were uncalled for. I think the Steady Shot nerf was too severe. I think the reduction of the cost of Arcane was a terrible way of trying to force it into everyone’s rotations (though I like it personally, as I already rotated Arcane).
Do I gloat when statistical outliers are nerfed? You bet, because I’m sick of people who partook in those statistical outliers holding it over my head. “lol u suck ur mm im bm i do 1000 more dps than u and i do less work”. That kind of mindset is what makes Neggles and I so hostile towards people who are simply BM because it’s the here-and-now “best spec”.
Be who you are and spec what you gravitate towards. I’m not a Beast Master because I don’t like the reliance upon others - as BRK himself has said, having to rely on others can suck a lot, and as a Beast Master, your DPS is very heavily reliant on your pet, which is an AI that’s at times very difficult to manage. I don’t like that reliance on outside forces. I want my DPS to be gleaned from my timing, rhythm, and cohesion with my cooldowns and abilities - that is why I’m a Marksman, and have been since WoW 1.0 and will continue to be until they make the class unplayable or the servers are shut down.
I’ve been here since before PVP was ever considered a measure to balance around, and gods willing, I’ll still be here once the devs get their heads out of their asses and get back to that mentality. And gods willing, the good Beast Masters will too, and they’ll still be Beast Masters, because that’s who they ARE.
Now, if that’s too condescending for you (because it hits too close to home), then there’s not much I can do about that. But my “hatred”, as you put it, is aimed at individuals, not the class and not any one tree or element of it.
@ Rilgon
Well writtien and well said!
I have read many comments by Rilgon on this forum and he has always provided accurate (imho) and, most times, funny statements.
Rilgon is not a hater of other specs, as shown in his many postings here.
I am BM and have run Surv before and found it challenging.
When the patch-slap happens I will try MM becuase really you cant say whats what unless you try it…
Props to Rilgon and BRK and all others who play this CLASS (pick your spec) because we are a CLASS first not subdivided and rude to each other even though we are all the same CLASS.
@fearstalker
You seem to have a common illiness of “reading what you want to read” - it’s a common problem on the internets, and easily treated. First, you take a deep breath, calm yourself of those icky irrational emotions, then slowly read over what people have said.
Rilgon and I do not hate BM.
We want all specs to be viable, such that everyone can play what they want, how they want, without obligations towards a certain tree because of disproportionate DPS.
There is no such thing as a PvP/PvE/Utility tree. Talents are like armor - they don’t replace skill.
The DPS gain is 61 in my gear (14/17 best in slots) as BM.
I’m this impressed.
@Rilgon:
I remember words from you - either here or on your blog - to the effect of “Cry me a river, BM hunters” and “It’s about time MM hunters got back to the top of the DPS tree - BM hunters have been there too long”. If I can’t back that up, I’ll withdraw.
More generally, where’s this “bring the player, not the spec” coming from? The spec is part of the package. How does my being a better player give me better DPS (or better CC abilities) IRRESPECTIVE OF MY SPEC? The whole point here is that the BM spec is being nerfed irrespective of the player; that’s what all the theorycrafting is about. As a player, my usefulness to a group depends on what my combination of gear, talents abilities and skill brings. The argument is that if the talents available to BRK as a BM hunter limit his total DPS to a level below - or even equivalent to - what an MM hunter with equivalent gear, abilities and skill can produce, he is less likely to get the spot; if only because a larger proportion of his DPS depends on his pet staying alive.
@ the guy who said SV is the new BM
ExS has been nerfed by 10.2% at 6k RAP. With the 30cd cooldown on LnL (WHY? better nerf trap dancing than that, srsly) I don’t see how SV is more viable than lolMM at this point.
As Hunter with Engineering and finally a spirit beast this patch just feels sad.
The nitro boost where great for getting that extra distance while kiting an enemy. Whats the point with just 2 seconds of extra speed. Guess I will have to enchant them with agility like all the rest.
And they nerf the spirit best too.
Only good thing is gnomish ligtning generator is instant cast but I would rather have skipped on that and kept some things as they used to be.
Robin, the “bring the player not the spec” ideal stems from, I believe, something Blizzard implied a while back with regards to how they were balancing WotLK instances. There’s a focus on player skill and adaptability over reliance on which talents and gear they bring. If a player has some crazy spec but can play it effectively, that’s what matters more than adhering to a spreadsheet-optimised build.
My understanding is that it was realised that it’s extremely hard to get a “proper” balance of classes/specs for 5 or 10 man instances, so things were moved to be more flexible (of which the inclusion of the Death Knight class was a big part) to open up higher-end content to more people, but skill was going to play a necessary role.
“Bring the player not the spec” basically means more accessibility to content but with a caveat that you’ve got to know what you’re doing if there’s deviation from the more standard class and spec combos.
@ Rilgon,
Rilgon, if your tone wasn’t “Now it’s time for MM to be the top spec” and more about “Come on in, the water’s fine..”, there would be a lot more wilingness to try MM.
You yourself say “Do I gloat when statistical outliers are nerfed? You bet, because I’m sick of people who partook in those statistical outliers holding it over my head. “lol u suck ur mm im bm i do 1000 more dps than u and i do less work”. That kind of mindset is what makes Neggles and I so hostile towards people who are simply BM because it’s the here-and-now “best spec”.”
You say it right here. You are hostile towards people who specced BM because it brought the most DPS, and you gloat in their nerfs. (And I remember the comments that Robin quoted as well).
Neggles is in this same group with you.
I’ll admit it, BM was easier to play, and that was part of the reason I stayed there. The fact that it was greater dps was icing on the cake. Then I really grew to love the pets.
But now, Blizz is taking all the fun out of pets. We are going to be bouncing back and forth between pets as Blizz nerfs them and breaks them. I almost feel like setting my Spirit Beast free, because Blizz seems intent on making sure it does less damage than any other exotic. Why would I bring it to raid, and if I can’t bring it to raid, then there is no point in having a show pet for around town.
It really takes the joy out of being a hunter… I really don’t feel like playing him until we see what 3.1 brings…
@Noah:
(Previous, longer, post eaten by BRK’s spamtrap).
You say “There’s a focus on player skill and adaptability over reliance on which talents and gear they bring.”
How does that work? How does my skill (or lack of it) change the theoretical maximum DPS available to my spec? (or the ability to chain trap without searoom, etc).
You say “If a player has some crazy spec but can play it effectively, that’s what matters more than adhering to a spreadsheet-optimised build.”
Do mobs say “That guy’s got a crazy spec that can only hit me half as hard as a spreadsheet-optimised spec - but because he’s playing it effectively I’ll lay down and die anyway”?
I play BM because, to be honest, I didn’t see the point of having a class with a unique characteristic, and not using that characteristic to the fullest. If Blizzard in their infinite wisdom decide that plain vanilla huntering - ie BM huntering - is going to be less advantageous to a group handling end-game content than the other trees, or other DPS classes, then I simply won’t get to see that content, because I am someone who as things stand will be limited to PUGs.
@ fearstalker
Yup, you do only hear want you want to hear.
All I’m getting from you is that you only love your spec/pet if it is overpowered.
And that’s really sad.
This thread was running without TEJ. Do note that.
Now to the subject at hand. I TL;DR’d half the thread because it wasn’t amusing.
1. Whoever gloats “HA HA YOUR FAVORITE SPEC IS NERFED SO MY FAVORITE SPEC IS #1 AMONG HUNTER DPS” is a mouthbreathing keyboard drooler.
2. “There’s a focus on player skill and adaptability over reliance on which talents and gear they bring. ” - Completely asinine. “Hey guys I can do this instance in greens!” - /golfclap. So did I, but it was early TBC heroics before the nerf wave to accommodate the average drooling idiot to them. “Hey guys I can spec 0/0/0 and still clear this instance!” - Talents are worthless now? Give me a break.
3. This “buff” is worthless. 61 DPS for a 3 talent points (and FI buff = sanc. ret. -> worthless). Give me a break.
TL;DR: The buff is worthless and you’re arguing over retarded topics. Both sides are wrong yet none will accept it. GJ. Why don’t you kite some dragon instead?
@Rilgon
I’d just like to apologize for the assinine (spelling?) tone i used towards you in my last comment, I think I fell into the “read what you want to hear” trap fearstalker is in. You’re right this is a PvE game and all specs should be viable for that. My real beef is with having all the OP eggs in 1 basket, SV. Before each spec had their area where they shined. Admittedly MM’s area sucked, but now BM truly has no area to excel and is inferior in every way to SV. Again, sorry.
@fearstalker
…
Robin;
Well, I’m not necessarily saying that the “bring the player not the spec” theory is truly effective, but it is what I believe the new balancing measures are based upon.
I have seen some odd hybrids played really well and effectively, so I’m going to guess that it’s possible to put together something that can still dish out the damage at “acceptable” levels but not be a standard build.
In my current “progression” I haven’t seen any higher end dungeons and certainly no heroics but we’ve been running them with very unconventional 5 mans, with a combination of a (still leveling) DK and my Gorilla tanking, supported by a Resto Druid, Affliction Warlock and Arcane Mage. And we do really well. By no means are we an optimal group but we do ok and see content.
Obviously I can’t comment on higher-tier stuff or raiding since we haven’t got that far yet.
What I’m seeing in-game and reflected in this thread (and in other WoW web places) is something of an end result of the long-brewing casual vs hardcore conflict. And it seems to be that WoW is being built to widely accommodate both camps. Can non-optimal specs/team composition do Heroic instances? No, of course not, but they can do them at normal difficulty and still see that content. Maybe they’ll see it later than sooner, but that’s ok. Are casuals with weird team configurations going to be doing Naxx the moment they ding 80? Probably not, but they’ll get there.
And all the while the hardcore min-maxers will be happily hammering the content for everything it’s worth, theorycrafting, tweaking to get the last drop of optimization out of their specs and groups.
But, both sides will be seeing content and enjoying it in their own way and that’s the direction that WoW seems to be taking.
WoW forums found there way to BRK, sad day. Even TEJ is making sense, what is the world coming to?
Its a game, play what you enjoy or what your guild needs.
All these 3.08 changes still rankle me as a BM Hunter, especially when I see DKs out DPSing me by 800-1200 DPS in Naxx depending on the encounter and laugh at me saying Hunters are getting nerfed. I don’t really care about not being No. 1 in the DPS meters, I’d be happy to see a Mage be at the top, but being out DPSed by a plate class and being told by Blizzard we are overpowered is a bitter pill to swallow. Not every encounter is Patchwork, which is nothing more than a target dummy, and with more sweeping changes being hinted at for v3.1 it seems Blizzard are knee-jerk reacting and making changes up as they go along.
The other annoyance is the constant whining that PvP is all that matters in a primarily PvE game, Blizzard trying to balance classes between PvE and PvP just doesn’t work.
Neggles, you still don’t get it. I spec to what will bring the most dps to the raid. We don’t offer utility anymore.
The funny thing is, nerfs bring out the hate between specs. Last year it was pallys, with holydins furious with retadins, because they felt the nerfs to holy were because of ret, and then prot upset with ret as well. And I won’t even mention the shockadins…
I never rejoiced in MM dps being lower (heck, I kinda liked the idea of being a MM sniper in the back of the raid).. but the gloating (as Rilgon admits to) over the nerf to BM is just tiring.
Sigh, OK, I give up…. the hunter class is ranged dps, and if we can’t bring it, then I’ll go do something else.
My annoyance with Blizz and the current situation is met only with my annoyance with the Spam-post-wrecker that BRK has installed…
Scrub
TEJ has always made sense. You just jumped on the “Oh novos he called a drooling mouthbreather a drooling mouthbreather” part of the post.
@ D&C
Patchwerk is the only heroic target dummy boss which can be (not anymore, since we make quick werk of him every time) a DPS benchmark which is fair for all classes under all possible circumstances. Everything else has a gimmick to it which gimps one DPS or another in some way.
You can’t possibly expect the same DPS on Gluth when you’re on trap/tranq(lol) duty as a eviscerate spamming HAT rogue or your average replenishmentbot.
Or to a deep wounds stacking warrior under 13 charges on Thaddius.
Frankly, no one with IQ > room temperature cares about DPS unless it’s fair for everyone (exception: sartharion10+3 where you NEED to burn down Tenebron fast. needless to say the lava wave is annoying as hell).
@EJ
I certainly don’t expect to be top DPS for every boss encounter, I fully understand there are many encounters where frankly our DPS can suffer tremendously. I peruse the WWS stats and can see many times where other classes out DPSed the Hunters by a huge margin, and points one to ask, why are we being singled out?
DPS envy from the other classes when we find a boss we excel at?
@ D&C
Yes, because FFB mages doing 6+k DPS on patchwerk is fine, fair and balanced. Also HAT rogues who push 7k, but that’s “fixed”.
The problem most of us had with TEJ was never his facts, but just the attitude towards other players. Particularly players who might not be all that interested in securing positions in top raiding slots.
I provide DPS for my raid. I consider that my main goal as a hunter. If my raid lead said he wanted me to be handing out surv buffs, I’d respec. If/When another spec becomes optimal for DPS, I will respec. If hunter DPS was completely eclipsed and my guild had need of the type, I’d probably switch toons if we couldn’t recruit a good one quickly enough (hooray for high level bank alts).
To the people like me: Not all hunters are like us. They emotionally bond with their characters and pets. This is a fine way to play a large multiplayer fantasy game. Blizzard has put what might rightly be termed an insane amount of work into making this environment immersive. They also want to see and participate in end-game content.
To those who are not: please understand that for some of us, this is more like a team sport than a fantasy world. The “fun” for us is topping damage meters, optimizing specs, or downing bosses in record time; and in my case, going out for drinks with several members of my raiding party afterwards. The character is no more “me” than the model I might choose in counterstrike. Some players like us are hardcore PvPers, others are not (personally… I prefer TF2 or CS:S to satisfy any PvP bloodlust)
There are also dedicated RPers and what might be called “socialite” players (if everyone on your server knows your toon’s name from Trade, that might be a hint), but these groups are generally not focused on high end content.
Blizzard does a remarkably good job of creating content for both groups of people. They suffered a bit on the immersive fantasy side in TBC, and they’re suffering a bit on the “challenge” side now. In neither case is it a disaster.
You are going to have conflicts between these groups at high levels. Before you flame someone to death… keep in mind that they may not have the same perspective on the game as you do.
To the competitive DPSers: ease up on the criticisms, okay? even a loss of 1k+ DPS is not going to kill most of the raids these people are in. Yes they’re suboptimal, and encounters are going to take longer… but BRK is 100% right that knowing your class and the mechanics of the various fights is far more important. Pointing out improvements is good, mocking the average hunter for not measuring up to an elite guild is bad (and silly).
To the non-stats-obsessed: please realize that there are people who more or less do this professionally. We are insane… but we actually _DO_ know better (in this tiny, fairly irrelevent microcosm). Take our advice or leave it, but please realize that in a top guild you will be expected to respec to squeeze out small increases in DPS, not just the massive inefficiencies that we (charitably or not) point out.
Both groups think the other is full of selfish asses. “Why would you deprive your group of the faster kill? Do you have some schadenfreude for your tank getting beat on by that boss?” and any of the “Recount-obsessed epeen stroker”-variants summarize the attitudes fairly well.
If you’re doing anything other than sailing through the encounters, personally I feel that you owe your fellow guildies the best performance you can give them, but that’s just me.
Thank you, Kir. It’s so rare and very refreshing to have someone from the progressive end-game perspective acknowledge that there is more to the game than just that.
Hey I never said everyone who doesn’t want to top Recount should GTFO of the game.
(I did say they should GTFO of my raids, but my guild is my own business)
@Kir - you are 100% correct. That’s why I never have a problem with anything Pike says (for example), her goals are different than mine in the game.
@Neggles - I’ll respond to your post…
@TEJ - Actually, you did tell everyone who “couldn’t perform” to GTFO of the game, and you posted it here..
@Rilgon - In the end, you still say you’re glad BM is being brought down. How about bringing up the other specs instead?
@fearstalker
“couldn’t perform” =/= not wanting to top recount. It was more in the fire-oriented category.
[...] by my work), that we WoW Hunters are in for a pretty hefty nerf come next patch. But we also get a wee lil’ buff to go along with the decrease in damage. This really only applies to Beast Mastery spec’d [...]
OK, I’ll take a moment and weigh in on something here. I don’t play a Hunter as my main. When I first started playing WoW, my main was a Hunter, and I levelled MM the whole way from 1-70. I was goofy, stupid, and did everything “Huntard” about the class, I think, but then - it was my learning curve to getting to know the game.
These days, I mostly play a Druid and a Shaman. Not because I particularly dislike Hunters; I still enjoy the class when I play it (though, admittedly, my Hunter is woefully geared from minimal raiding). I play the classes that I do because they’re the most fun for me. More specifically, my Druid is Feral, and my Shaman flips specs between Resto and Elemental, depending on raid needs (though, I’ve always thought of her as a healer first).
When Blizz ventured into the great unknown with 51-point talents, Death Knights, gear-sharing and class/spec equality 3.0.whatever, I’ve certainly seen some chaos. I feel like I’m an OP healer. I think my formerly indomitable tank is a shadow of his former self. I hate the DPS meters when I’m Ele, because almost any Mage in blues can crush me, no matter how tight my spell rotation.
The point is, WoW is in a state of serious flux right now. They introduced some sweet new stuff to all of the talent trees for all of the classes, and the results were anything but uniform. Some specs are OP as hell. Some just flat stink. Who would have thought that we’d see the day Warlocks QQ about being bad in PvP now that everyone else has a massive burst but them? it takes some time to iron it out, and that what’s happening with this “nerf” - it’s bringing the too-powerful down, and boosting the underpowered up… theoretically. The process will take a lot of tinkering, and this isn’t the last that you’ll see by a long shot.
What’s dangerous about the situation as it stands is this - min/max guilds and players are going to make the game very homogenous, very quickly. If you wanted to run the nastiest 25-man possible right now, You’d probably have a couple of Prot Paladins for trash tanks and OTs, an OMG Warrior for Bosses, one Holy Paladin to heal him, a few Resto Shamans to Chain Heal everyone else, and a crapload of BM Hunters to fill out every DPS slot because nobody can compete with their damage output. That’s not a game anymore for a raider, that’s servitude. Want to play a Priest? Find another guild, buddy. Your heals suck and so does your DPS. We have BM Hunters. Delete your Rogue while you’re at it, he can’t buff anyone with anything.
The model as it stands is clearly broken. We all knew Ret Pallies were broken at 70, but they came down to Earth as everyone moved to 80. When Blizz got wise to Resto Druids ruling Arena to the exclusion of everyone else, they nerfed the crap out of abilities judged as tilting the PvP balance, with the fringe effect of severely impacting the PvE game for Restos. For better or for worse, the dirty end of the stick is now pointed squarely at BM Hunters and (thankfully) Death Knights.
You can’t just bring every other class up in their DPS / healing / tanking ability just because BM is godly right now, because that only breaks the ecosystem. You be turning Naxxramas (which is already easy enough for most raiders) into 3.0.2 Karazhan.
I understand that it’s tough to be OP and watch it slip away. Remember, I’ve got a Druid tank. Before 3.0.2, he was a nasty, furry little badass who could take on anything. These days? Mana sponge. The time will come when he’ll have a return to glory, I’m sure, but it isn’t the flavor of the month anymore.
In part, though, I can understand the animosity towards the BM Hunters, though I think that it’s misplaced. Before DKs came along and (in my mind at least) usurped the title, Hunter was the “Official Class of the Unskilled”.
I know I’m about to catch hell for that, so let me explain.
Most Hunters don’t fall into that category. I’d venture a guess that nearly all of the people who wind up reading this (ergo, the ones who actually care about stat itemization, shot rotation, etc) don’t fit that bill. But there exists a minority of Hunter players who give the class a bad rap, and these players can do very, very well with precious little ability or skill. Chain Trap? What? yeah, those. it’s because of the asshats that a lot of us indulge that natural human instinct which takes some degree of perverse joy in watching those above us fall - and in this case, we like to watch the asshats fall, because they never deserved to be there in the first place.
To those of you who do care about gemming, enchanting and stat-stacking appropriately, who play your spec - BM or otherwise - because it brings you joy to play that way, I’ll say this: you’ll adapt. Intelligent players will always find a way to squeeze the maximum out of what they are given, and that’s never going to change. No matter how much they nerf BM, and how much they might buff Elemental or Feral, BRK will always slaughter me on DPS meters. I’m just not on that theorycrafting level.
What is great about this is that it allows us to embrace some different specs and classes. Remember the days when progression guilds *might* allow one MM Hunter in a 25 man raid? They’re gone, and be thankful. Try something new out, you might like it. Raiding is about downing the boss, and working as a unit to accomplish that. Sure, moar DPS is one avenue to that end. replenishment buffs that allow your mana-users to keep right on chain-casting is another. Massive sustained range instant casts are yet another.
These changes aren’t rendering you impotent as a raider. Bringing BM more down to Earth, yes, but certainly not hamstringing viability. If your world view of raiding is so narrow as to believe that reducing you to #5 on the DPS meter makes you worthless, then you’re missing the big picture.
@Rilgon:
I said:
“I remember words from you - either here or on your blog - to the effect of “Cry me a river, BM hunters” and “It’s about time MM hunters got back to the top of the DPS tree - BM hunters have been there too long”. If I can’t back that up, I’ll withdraw.”
I haven’t been able to find those words; I withdraw. Don’t go saying them again, though…
….
I am astonished at some of the hate on this post.
I haven’t checked on it in awhile, but allow me to clear some things up.
Blizzard is currently attempting to make all 3 talent trees for hunters equal in terms of PvP and PvE. This is a brand new movement that started when Wrath was in development, the poster-child being the Death Knight class. This was started in order to bring the player, and not the class.
In order to do this, Blizzard has to unravel and recreate about 27 trees and balance 30 of them against themselves. This is going to take a really long time.
Now, I understand you humans have a hard time trying to understand patience sometimes, but you must be patient.
I am a BeastMaster. I am going to acknowledge that BM was doing WAY more damage than everyone else unless you were undergeared or you didn’t know how to play your class. They had to nerf us to allow MM and Surv to be viable. Hence, bringing a larger variety of players to the table. You could play how you wanted.
This is how it should be. You play a game to have fun, and I would rather play a game the way I wanted to rather than the way I have to. To me, playing the way I have to makes this game become a job, and that sucks. A lot.
So, to all the people hating on any idea of change.
Please, please do yourselves a favour and learn patience, or stop playing. This game is going to change a lot in the months and years to come. It has to reshape itself to become a game for everyone, not just a game for you.