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BigRedKitty Podcast, Episode Twelve, is published. You got your 100%, unadulterated, MP3-glory in the iTunes Store, the sidebar, and right here.
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Alot help! thx =) great insight I might think about the survival hunter after the patch
“effective, raiding SV hunter”?
Maaaaaaybe, BIG maybe in 3.0.8. (Assuming ExS doesn’t get nerfed back to its usual state - worthless)
Oh you mean replenishmentbot? Sorry, ret/SP already doing that and they do “DPS” in the meantime.
Please.
Fabulous podcast!! Maybe my other, well, second of many (she is 75 now), hunter will give Survival a try.
My Guild Leader just specced survival, I will make sure he checks out Lienna’s blog and this podcast to make sure he got it right!
With regards to:
Survival: Ive been threatening to go Surv from MM since the PTR news came out. I’ll try this spec and see what I get. I exclusively raided Surv in BC.
Lienna: Good job. I love Hunter info and since BRK is usually BM heavy this was most appreciated. Her site is now bookmarked.
The Podcast: BRK your music bed needs to be lowered a tick or two, if you feel its needed at all.
TEJ, you’d think you would have found a blog more suitable to your “discerning” tastes by this point. You have shown time and time again that BRK’s writings are not for hunters of your ilk.
Can’t listen to the ‘cast right now, but I’m sure it’s awesome as usual. Lienna is great.
I have a different spec used in my raid. Sniper training is ownage, extra range helps, aimed shot is glory, noxius stings is kinda useless.
Great job Lienna, you’re making the SV hunter community proud.
what about stabilized effort scope for MM?
What about it? To paraphrase Stabilized Effort: “Cats are getting nerfed! Yay! /happy dance”.
Personally i’d like to hear Rilgon and BRK chat on a podcast.
@Disappointed: He’s not the only one happy about cat nerfs, put away your torch and pitchfork.
Did no one notice that rake got a scaling buff and a base damage buff in the latest build?
@Sade
Gimped specs are not my ilk.
Ya i find survival to be a lot of fun. But i dont use my traps i am a long ranged hunter and the spec for that was not given But here is my Spec for long range
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=coZ0eVoMhZe00i0cIhxhA0cp
I did only put 1 point into imp aspect of the hawk because when it procs i get my steady Shot down to 1.5 i also have the glyph
With this spec i have been topping DPS in almost all the raids iv been in. And my gear is not GREAT but good 3 out of 5 heroes ill prob be tweaking it but for now its doing me good =)
Don’t worry BRK,you always sound like a loud-mouthed schnook.
JK…or am I?
You asked for that one BRK!
Several minor criticisms of Lienna’s suggestions:
1. Taking savage strikes isn’t terrible for trap dancing, depending on the boss you will have to go into melee range and thus popping a quick mongoose bite while laying a trap before getting back to range. Honestly though as she said entrapment or any of the other talents are fine, its all personal choice. I prefer Hawk’s Eye.
2. Glyph of Immolation shot< Glyph of Improved Aspect of the Hawk.
Steady and Serpent glyphs as your others.
Have anybody transcribed this yet? For those of us hard of hearing …
Fifty minutes on a podcast, BRK? Yikes. But uh, you need to figure out how to make your guests louder, you loud-mouthed schnook. =/
And by the way, could you possibly post the build you and Lienna discussed?
He did. Second paragraph:
“Our special guest this episode is Lienna from Liennaslog to talk about Survivalist huntering! Here a link to the spec Lienna taught us to be an effective, raiding SV hunter.”
@Truewanderer
Defiantly agree with you on the glyphs, the problem is that BRK is a good interviewer and I’m not a good interviewee, couple with a 3am recording time did leave me being a bit muddled about things, if you choose not to grab improved aspect of the hawk then the immolation glyph is for you, but if you do splash the points in BM the imp.aspect of the hawk glyph is the better one.
On savage strikes its something which you might have to do on some bosses, its situational like all the talents you can take to get deeper into survival at that point, you just pick ones that you happen to like, I haven’t seen any big raptor strike/mongoose bite crits while leveling my weapon skills, I think they haven’t scaled up very well with WotLK.
@ Zanpher
Sorry for my really weak voice, its just one of those facts of nature, perhaps I should try to actually eat my mic next time and it might help a bit. Besides if you get a transcript you’ll miss all my stammering, and what fun would that be?
@Lienna
I think you did a great job, and the information was very helpful. I’ve been mulling over the idea of switching to SV from BM once the patch hits, and the info hepled a lot. Your site has definitely been bookmarked as a place for me to do my research 
I don’t think you’re voice was weak. Maybe the accent was just a bit too distracting for us American folk though
And BRK, great idea for the podcast, for the same reasons I’ve stated above. And it was much funner to listen to than reading a bunch of boring theorycraft
@Kordwar: if you think that’s torches and pitchforks, I can’t imagine what you’d think if i said something that’s actually mean.
Metorite Whetstone, proc 441 haste, of something like that, very good to dent that numbr, also if ur like me and have DST from gruuls it works too
for the elitist jerk whos on here, SV hunters can do dps, i was SV for a while and was doing just a little less then my BM dps
No no no, its not you
I mean, I have a hard time hearing any of these pod casts 
Thats why i was hoping for someone to transcribe … 
What changes would you suggest (if any) for a leveling build? My hunter is 73, and I’m thinking of switching to SV to go with my wife’s hunter.
BRK, i hate to go off topic, but could you post a word on the shirts?
@Disappointed: I’m talking about the fact that the moment someone mentioned SES and you made a point to troll. If you were to say something “mean” on the internet i would be all a flutter, really i would.
The piece that intrigued me from Lienna’s blog really lead me to expect somebody with a presence on a podcast.
Next time she’s on, would you mind getting a recording of her actually reading this out loud:
“please, please, step away from that pile of steaming dung that you called a test survival build before you become sick. Really that thing is giving off noxious vapors, and I think I see someones pet boar rolling in it!
How can I put it a way that a BM hunter would understand?”
Just interested in matching the voice to the words.
I just did some testing on the live realms with the SV build suggested here and the conventional BM tree. Using glyph of steady shot, serpent sting, and AotH I exhausted my mana, switched to viper and got all my mana back, then drained it again, I was able to get 2100 DPS on a level 80 dummy with SV and 2300 with BM. And with all the nerfs coming to BM, I, personally, cannot wait to respec SV once the patch hits. If not for the DPS it’s because BM IS BORING. Spam steady - sting - steady - sting - steady - sting. SV is actually engaging. Trapping = fun
I loved this interview!
Very intelligent and experienced players talking with each other is something to be completely enjoyed. I listened to it all with my talent tree open and weighing each choice with great interest.
Thanks!
With regards to Sniper Training or Trap Dancing:
With the addition of a 30 second cool down to LnL, dropping Immolation traps to maximize damage might not be the only way to go.
I spent some time on the PTR working this out. After a ten minute fight against the Heroic Test dummy, Serpent Sting alone gave me 14 LnL procs. That’s an average of a proc every 45 seconds.
Dancing with the traps could have given a possible 20 LnL procs (traps can be resisted) but you have to think about what else you’re giving up. Sniper Training increases the damage of Steady, Aimed, and Explosive Shot, when 30 yards or further from the target. You can drop traps and shoot, only having to move a step or two, but then you’re also in Melee range, I can think of several instances where that would be bad. (Ice blocks on Kel for instance)
I was pleased with my Long Range Hunter build, and personally I think that’s how hunters are intended to be played. Again, it’s my personal preference, but I feel that dancing should be left to Jennifer Lopez, and MQoSRDPS should be given to the Hunters. : D
I love BM too much to try out SV just now but I’ll certainy be giving it a go when Dual-specs come out.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=chZ0eVozbZx0hi0cIhxdAhou
’nuff said
Thank you for another very interesting ‘cast, BRK. With the upcoming nerf to BM, it’s clear that many of us longtimers have started to look sideways over to the right where those scary trees are. The insightful suggestions and clarifications in this episode will make a good guideline where to start an excursion into SV land.
I am aware of all the effort that goes into a podcast in general, and particularly a well prepared interview one, but do you have any nice MM blogger friends that could shed some similar light over the pros and cons of their tree? Having a tree that takes different synergies into effect to tweak to your own liking is great!
Oh, and awesome work, Lienna! Thanks for staying up late to provide us with this!
I always love the music you use in your podcasts, any chance you put credits on your site or something?!
Thanks Lienna,
I have been raiding as a survival hunter for the last few weeks and I do really well in the DPS stakes, I think with a tweak or 2 it may get even better, you pod cast definitely made me analyze every point I spend a little more.
@ the people who say survival can’t DPS clearly have either not tried it or seen a decent survival hunter play.
I can not compare to any hunters in my guild as there is just me when we raid at the moment, but in pugs to OS and VoA heroic, I have never seen a hunter out DPS me, I guess you could say every PUG I have been in sucked, which to be honest maybe true, although I have never wiped in one yet *fingers crossed*
And if you actually read what I say instead of paraphrasing it to make me look like some sort of monster: I’m happy about it because it makes pets a choice now. If you like a cat, go for it. If you like a wasp, go for it. Do what works best with you and your raid, not just a cat or scorpid because anything else is a 400-800 DPS loss.
Choice and parity are goals that always need to be aspired towards.
I respecced over the weekend into Surv, MM and back to BM to test on the dummies in Org.
I found (unoficially) that BM was topping out at 2900 (avg about 2600)
Surv was topped at 2600 (avg about 2300)
MM was topped at 2500 (avg about 22100)
Now I have never played MM so I dont know how great my build was and I have only played surv a little (about 3 months last year) so my build was close to what was recommended above.
Here is a thought for Blizz - make a 10G repsec that only applies as long as you are in your capital city, once you leave your spec resets.
Good for testing without having to shell out so much gold…just a thought
/agree with RiIgon
I HATE being pigeonholed into pet choices!
Take this, Devilsaur!
/lettuceWHACK
also /agree Rilgon
I found that a great podcast! Really really helpful and enjoyable.
One thing - could anyone clarify for me about Surv & haste - the 15% from quiver wasn’t mentioned explicitly as whether the number of haste required included that 15% or not?
Am I the ONLY person who thinks Lienna is Turpster using a falsetto? Hello, it’s painfully obvious.
@Charlatan: Yes, the 15% haste from your quiver is part of the haste that you already get - you need another 15%-ish haste on TOP of your quiver to cap out your haste for Steady.
It’s not so much of an importance to MM, at least IMO, but it’s definitely more important for SV, according to a lot of the top Survivalists.
We do love our tanks…
http://epicdwarvenblogger.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/a-letter-to-my-meat-shield/
I enjoyed this podcast more than any you have done so far. I’m a BM hunter using most of the “BRK” talent spec which I’ve been learning as I go, but I learned more about “talent spec” tech analysis from this pod cast than from any other research I’ve done. I’m considering creating a SV hunter just to experience the things you and your knowledgeable guest discussed.
I would love to hear the discussion turned around and/or have a MM hunter do the same king of question answer session with you.
Big thanks for a very valuable podcast.
Nice job Lienna! I’d try SV myself but I refuse to put my spirit beast in the stable unless I’m out soloing Onyxia with Gorilladin or showing off my Oozeling
@ Spelunker
I did get sort of a weird Dame Edna vibe at the beginning of the podcast.
I call Shenanigans.
I always liked that it sounds like you do your podcasts in a busy tavern.
The only thing I would suggest is to vary the background tracks with the different tavern musics of azeroth. That’d be cool
“avg about 22100″
I’ll take that one
Couple of people have said this, but I thought it deservers repeating:
“Lienna sounds like a lady while we sound like a loud-mouthed schnook”
And? What exactly is the problem? Sounds like it’s “working as intended.”
@ Rilgon: yeah, I understand your desire for balanced pets, and I don’t think you necessarily meant to display a lot of cat hatred. But you should recognize a couple of things. 1) You’ve mentioned your detestation of hunters with cats several times in your blog, even though you personally are a cat person IRL. 2) In that particular posting, you did nothing more than post some data from EJ and /happy dance about it. (Although the data was in fact out of date by the time you posted it, based on new cat dps push on the PTRs.) 3) you posted broadly about the cat nerf, a good deal. So, an easy conclusion is that your opinion of cats is more viceral than simply about balance.
That being said, I do take you at your word on the point of pet balance. But I will post one question I am curious about. Do you think Cat DPS=Wasp DPS=Carrion Bird DPS?
Should have said : Do you think Cat DPS, Wasp DPS, Carrion Bird DPS should all be equal?
Umm.. was she actually in the room or did you do this over vent or something.
She sounds like she is from Canada or something. Just the awkward silence at times struck me as funny. This podcast very informative. But I was thrown by the interviewee.. Sorry Lienna, it just sounded a bit fake to me.
On paper, ferocity pets should be able to put out equal dps if you disable all pet abilities and just let them use their focus dumps IMO. When you start adding in unique abilities, that would then skew the numbers in favor of certain pets and throw off that ‘balance’ I felt like a tool using a cat in raids in five mans but I knew I’d be gimping myself if I used my wasp or, god forbid, my spirit beast. I’d just like to see it get to the point where it’s not ‘cat or GTFO’ but rather ‘you’re using a wasp instead of a cat? cool.’
@ Gemini
I’m from England and we used skype, there is a 5 hour time difference between us so I’m guessing most of those pauses are lag, at one point I actually lost BRK for about 20 seconds and got him back just at the end of a rant, luckily managing to catch his question.
@ Spelunker
Darn it, how did you work out my secret identity? Did the dumpy one with the bad glasses find a “clue”? And I would have gotten away with it, if it wasn’t for you meddling kids!
With minor deviation or slight (i.e. less than 10%) reductions for utility? Abso-freaking-lutely.
And a loser, am I? No one does Marksmanship, eh?
You will RUE the day, Mr. Kitty! RUE, I SAY!
But that is the difference, and a significant difference, in my mind. All ferocity pets should be equal with the exception of the special ability. So, how much should a special ability count for? Cats bring only one thing as a special abiltity - more dps. Wasps and Carrion birds both bring a really nice debuff that has a damage component to it. Should the damage component of Sting be the same as the damage component of Rake? I woudl assert that the answer is “absolutely not.” You decide to bring a wasp because you don’t have a class that provides a secondary armor reduction to the raid, i.e. you don’t have a Boomkin with fairie fire. As a result of your wasp, the raid physcial DPS classes do more damage.
But if on the other hand, you have a secondary armor debuffing class, then bringing a wasp is a waste of a special ability. So, you bring a cat which has a special ability that only does addittional damage and nothing else.
The problem is that people get hung up on is the Damage meters. “If you’re not top on the damage meters, or not bringing your maximum dps, then you’re wrong.” This rationale is foolish. If you bring slightly less DPS than your maximum because you bring a pet that ups everyone else’s dps, then that’s a huge benefit to the raid. This was the whole basis for speccing Surv in TBC - your diminished raid dps was counteracted by Expose weakness.
So, when you measure cat dps vs. wasp dps in a vacuum, and complain that wasp dps is lower than cat, it’s a weak argument. The cat should bring more. The question though is how much more. That’s the question I think ought to be considered by hunters.
And that is precisely why Sting’s DPS should be equal with Rake’s. If you need the extra armor piercing debuff, it’s there. If not, you’re not hampering yourself and your raid just to run with what you want.
And besides, as it stands, Rake already has advantages over Sting as it is. As a Bleed effect, Rake stands to gain a huge amount more damage than Sting does in the right raid composition - Bleed effects gain 30% from Mangle or Trauma, versus Sting gaining 12% from Earth and Moon or 13% from Curse of Elements with 3/3 Malediction. Were Rake and Sting to be equalized in a vacuum, that alone would cause the “less utilitious” ability to be ahead in DPS in a perfect scenario.
@Rilgon - I’d need to theory craft on this one, and don’t have the time to do it here at work. Lord knows I squander enough time on the web as it is!!!
But this is where I disagree.
I think the the equivalence point should be
(dps due to cat rake damage) = (physical dps increase from wasp armor reduction). Problem is, that’s going to vary in a 5-man, 10-man and 25-man. Oh well.
But I think if you’re choosing a pet based on the utility of a buff, you shouldn’t get a free pass if it doesn’t apply in the raid.
The same argument is that TSA is an important ability and I should get it even if I have a deathknigget in the raid. (Or Fer. Inspir. and a ret pally.) I spent the talent points on it, why I be penalized when it’s not being used.
Thoughts?
And lord knows how you measure carrion bird Screech Boss AP reduction versus raid-wide damage increases.
@Ril! Stop posting so FAST! Dam bloggers.
Yeah, I’ll agree on the Rake getting too much of a raid buff from mangle. That was just too OP.
my pseudo equation is a bit off. Should be:
(cat dps due to rake) = (wasp dps due to sting + raid wide damage increase due to armor debuff.)
I’ll also admit, for the record, that I’ve leveled a wasp for times just those times when another class is not present for the debuff and we’re carrying a lot of physical dps. I hate the flappy things cause they get in the way to a certain extent.
You have a point, but A) it’s impossible to calculate just how much is being generated from the Sting debuff, and B) it’s not fair to punish someone for wanting to have a Wasp but their group already has a composition that includes a Minor Armor Debuff of some sort.
I do not mind Rake being 10-15% better due to Sting’s utility. I do mind Rake being 300%+ better like it is now.
new update to stings tooltip: “sting now does 10% extra damage if faerie fire is on the target” make sting do 10% less damage than rake, problem solved.
Unfortunately I’m not ghostcrawler, but hey, I got the ideas!
Make sure that includes Curse of Recklessness, Lienna.
And I’m gonna take Oona to Naxxramas tonight and hold BRK to his word about posting pics of Sporebats in Naxx.
Rilgon… The essence of your argument is that “The DPS should be the same because I want to bring a wasp.”
I hate to break it to you, but if there’s a pet that brings the same DPS as a cat, plus it has extra utility(even if it’s only situational), then all of the min/maxers are going to bring that pet instead because there will be no reason not to, and you will no longer be a unique snowflake.
If we carry your argument to its logical extension, every hunter pet would be exactly the same (within the ferocity/cunning/tenacity groups) with the graphic being the only difference, and I don’t think that’s something most hunters would get behind.
Personally I don’t think “trap dancing” is all that good, especially if they go with the 30 second cooldown. It may be a little more DPS, but the user error margin gets much, much higher. You put yourself in a lot more danger which causes more of a burden on your healers and significantly increases the chance of the hunter dying which is a HUGE hit to DPS. Better safe than sorry and, as someone above me said, if you really love Lock and Load, keeping Serpent Sting up should proc it readily enough.
@aruku: I’m not yet skilled or experienced enough to go level-80 raiding like many of ya’all, but I couldn’t disagree with you much more. If I’m tackling high-level content and I want to max out damage, I don’t want to see that process be “safe” or “easy”. Trap-dancing sounds risky indeed, and for that reason alone it sounds Fun and challenging. I hate to hear that trapping & sheeping isn’t being used in raiding any more - CC is one of the parts of the lower-level instances that I really enjoy, it makes the game more complex and interesting. I’d much rather hear about players that continuously maintain higher DPS through really challenging techniques rather than picking the cookie-cutter builds, standing back and pew-pewing with the right shot rotation.
I want to see blizzard introduce the Tougher Sibling version of “The Safety Dance” achievement - “The Dangerous Dance” - kill Heigan while the whole group survives *while* maintaining L&L via traps over 80% of the fight!
Heigan has a safespot
I gotta say, as someone who mostly solos LnL drove me NUTS. It would invariably proc right before the target died, giving me no time to fire off all free shots.
@ anonymous OK, you can’t say that without providing pics/coords
I know what spot he’s talking about and it’s most likely an exploit
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cbZ0eVoohZe00i0cIhxuAhcz
this is the right build. FOR RAIDING. hunting party is weak sauce. trust me.
dont u wanna dps instead?
we have NO control over the proc of hunting party - pallys and shadow priests do. lets leave it to them. we aren’t contributing enough procs to give any points to it.
glyph with serpent sting, AotH, and steady shot.
i am at or near the top of my dps and total dmg charts every raid.
you need tons of agility and also build toward the haste soft cap to make SV work. u must understand your shots are situational too.
get a cat and use this tree:
http://www.wowhead.com/?petcalc=0md00fc0zho
if you aren’t a raider - i think sticking to BM will be just fine, dont worry
Thanks for the confirmation about the quiver.
I do agree that hunters should not be pigeon-holed into bringing one pet all the time, esp after Bliiz did all this work on pets.
I’m lucky - my guild never had a problem with me raiding with a raptor in TBC for progression and then bringing my wolf for farm stuff (cos pets like to see the instances too right??), and i still did great dps despite not having the “top” dps pet.
For me i need a pet i care about or I KNOW I’ll be marginally sloppy about keeping it alive and then dead pet = less dps.
I’ve only just started raiding in Wrath. I WAS really looking forward to bringing the Wolf but with FH not stacking and us usually running with a Warr tank i think i’ll prob go with the 2-Headed Frozen Puppy of Doom for now. Despite being a fan of Raptors I find myself a bit “meh” about Devilsaurs so far, also having seen another hunter’s cause a couple of pat/extra mob pull’s with the way it moves back as it gets bigger I remain very hesitant about using one.
Great podcast. Lienna was great! Being a BM hunter from the start, I really appreciated hearing about the SV spec in an intelligent conversation.
I have been a SV Hunter for about 2 year now. It is overall my favor spec for hunters. What I don’t think is being addressed is you guys are talking about being either a dancing trap hunter or a long ranged hunter for SV spec. The problem with this is each spec is so situational. What I like about the SV spec is its so versital. I did enjoy the the podcast but it I’m surprised you didn’t go more in depth or no offense but it just seemed like you were a little unprepared for the interview. for example. I think you should at least put at least 1 point in sniper training as an SV hunter. There are alot of situations where you can be at make range and that added bonus is nice. on the other hand there are also alot of fights where you got to keep moving or are not able to be at max range so it makes sniper training useless. especially if you’re say on Loken and you have to be very close to the boss. or you have a boss that teleports all the players to them. that is where the trap dancing can come into play. It’s all about adapting to the situation and still being effective. I’ll even just use a freezing arrow shot just to get LnL to proc. that way i don’t half to waste time running up to drop a trap and still maintaining max range. The biggest problem with being just one sub spec or the other (long range/trap dancer) is that not all the bosses or even trash are going to be the same composition in all instances. So where you might shine really well in one fight you might be a mere shadow of yourself in the the next.
On another note. I love explosive shot. And i am not happy about the single target change to the talent. To me it kind of defeats the whole point of the shot. Ya it will tick on the single target but it is so nice when it ticks on near by enemies on trash or adds on a boss. My AP with my AotDH on is 3910 and i have a Crit rating of just over 30% unbuffed. My numbers are no where near as small as Lienna’s. My crits are usually any wear from high teens to low to mid 2k and my procs 8-900 or in the 1ks. then if you add mobs in the melee vicinity it has the same chance on them for the same value. Sometimes my screen looks like I just did a volley shot on the mobs but it’s only from my explosive shot.
And lastly, I’m not happy about the 30 sec CD on LnL. It was nice to get LnL back to back on boss fights especially. And you could work in a 100% chance with a trap if it happened after a serpent sting trigger too. It just seems like it is dumbing down the spec a little for those that don’t know what to look for or how to extort there talent build to its full potential.
Sorry for the typos above, but it won’t let me go back and edit for some reason.
I have a question about LnL. It procs when you trap something, but does it fall off if you target something else?
In other words, if you chain trap something, can you use the LnL procs on skull?
You can use it on what ever you want while its up
The Background sound, the music and the Dwarfs talking, was too loud and a bit distracting especially considering the important topic and the low voice of your guess.
On the other hand it was so interesting that I heard it 4 times to try to get all the explanation right. Great episode
[...] strange thing happened the other day. I was over at BigRedKitty as I usually am, reading up on his latest podcast featuring the SV hunter guru-blogger [...]
great podcast very informative, u should have Lienna on again
BRK Podcast Drinking game.
Everytime BRK says something and Lienna seems frazzled by it… take a drink.
after leveling in wrath as srv and having a blast, i thought i could relate to something in that podcast, i stopped about 2 minutes in the podcast… sounded like a bm hunter with a srv specc
@lkafj
What on earth does that even mean?