25,000 Dollar Hunter Pyramid
“Dear BRK, when someone in the LFG channel asks to you to whisper your specs before a group invite – which specs are they looking for exactly? As a BM hunter, how should our pet’s stats be included with our own before replying? Brettski”
The problem with the “stat-question” scenario is that it requires both parties – the hunter and the person in LFG –to be on the same wavelength. Obviously the hunter is an upstanding person, both in mental acuity and personal hygiene, so he knows what’s going on. The person in LFG, however, is frequently an incompetent tool who wouldn’t know what to do with a 3000dps hunter if he was given instructions on a ViewMaster.
In other words, you can rattle of your massive agility, ranged attack power, and crit percentage and still get turned down because he wants to know your DPS without your pet, ‘cause his doesn’t let hunters bring pets as they cause too many wipes.
The standard response to “spec and stats, plz” used to be to list your agility, ranged attack power, and crit. But with the advent of the Armory, if someone really cares what your stats are, they can easily look you up and find out. There is no real need to whisper that data anymore. And besides, individual stats tell such a small percentage of the story of a player’s competence that nobody should be asking for that stuff anymore anyway.
Let’s pretend that the person asking the question is quasi-knowledgeable about hunters. What kind of information about you might they want to know?
* Target-dummy DPS
* Pet
A hunter’s DPS can fluctuate wildly based upon his party makeup. Target dummies, while not the greatest equalizer in the universe, are at least a singular standard that anybody who is familiar with raiding should understand.
You are allowed to adjust your measured-DPS if you have a logical reason. For example, if have a combined hunter-pet DPS on a target dummy of 1500, but you have five points in Improved Tracking, you can add 5% more DPS since this talent isn’t used against the mechanical target dummies but will be used against everything in an instance. You can “legally” say you bring 1575DPS in this case, no problem.
If you’re a proc-dependent spec, you can report the average of your DPS-ratings. In our current SV-configuration, if we have zero Lock and Load procs, we will have a combined 2600DPS on target dummies. But if we get two or three LnLs to pop off, our DPS can soar to 3200DPS. That’s quite a difference, and we really shouldn’t report that we provide consistent 3200DPS; that would be false advertising. If we say we average 2900DPS on target dummies, that’s ethical and won’t affect our loot-karma.
The hunter-pet distribution isn’t important. The pet-stats aren’t important. That’s all hunter-knowledge that the lesser classes shouldn’t care about.
But the type of pet you’re going to bring is very indicative of the quality of player you are. You are a hunter and your job is to do damage. You are bringing a Ferocity or high-DPS Cunning pet ‘cause that’s how you roll, right? If you’re bringing an atypical or Tenacity pet, you’d better be ready for the inviter to omit you from consideration. Non-hunters expect hunters to bring cats, raptors, wolves, wasps, and spirit beasts, (which they think are cats). Spiders and silithids and sporebats will have to be explained, so save those pets for your guild runs.
BAM! You’re a lesser class. You’re a squishie healer, OK? Imagine yourself asking the question about stats. Which response would you rather get from the anonymous hunter:
“800 agi, 3000 rap, 25% crit.”
“BM hunter with a ferocity cat-pet and a combined 2000DPS on target-dummy.”
And if the answer the other person wants doesn’t make sense to you, perhaps that’s a sign of a PuG you don’t want to be anywhere near.
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57 Responses to “25,000 Dollar Hunter Pyramid”
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Is the answer to the hidden question ‘Ground Beef’?
I love you, BRK.
This is exactly why I do not PuG.
The folks that know me seek me out.
I DPS hard, melt face, and my pet behaves. The top of the meter is MINE, it is PRECIOUS to me. Must have my PRECIOUS top spot on the meter.
@Tinuviel For that, you shall suffer.
As a tank, getting asked by the party invited for PuG is kind of hit or miss. The good group will ask about my avoidance/mitigation. The bad group will ask for my health pool and defense. Good thing I’m not exactly desperate for much from Heroic instance except for Violet Hold that refused to drop my trinket.
Get out of my head, BRK! I just posted something along the exact same lines not an hour ago!
http://e4ae.blogspot.com/2009/01/dps-numbers-need-context.html
I got turned down for a heroic PUG once because (and I quote) “You need better gear to do heroics”. Was wearing blues and crafted epics at the time. No amount of reasoning would work- I explained to him that at the time, a BM hunter with a scorpid in greens/whites could out DPS any other class, regardless of their gear level. I explained to him that I had done said heroic many times, and was a very good BM hunter. I promised that I would not hold the group back. Nothing worked.
I got a tell from the tank about an hour later saying that they had elected to take a rogue in great gear, who proceeded to absolutely fail at being a rogue. He was outDPSed by the tank, didn’t know what fan of knives was, was specced for PVP, and never once used tricks of the trade.
I rest my case.
TJ, no need to cause suffering… I got it too, but emailed it to BRK
I was thinking I’d call him “Chuck” ??? (same concept as ground beef).
@Khraden BRK is not awesome enough to put such hilarious jokes into his own posts.
I don’t believe I’ve ever had anyone ask for my stats as a DPS member of a PuG. As a tank or healer? Sure. But not as DPS.
I used to be in a -1 guild. Meaning that each and every run for some mysterious reason we where exactly one personn short of a full guild run (wether 10 or 25 man). And it was my task to find a pug. I quickly decided that armory was my best friend. I dint care and dint have the time to conduct and interview and instead I would head over to the armory, check if he was specced for PvE and had decent gear and off we go. Convo looked like this:
/LFG Looking for 1 dps, heroic naxx
/hunter whispers you : I’m up for it.
/me : Just a sec
*scuttle to armory, hunter has PvE spec and at least blues all over*
/invite hunter
“Specks plz.”
“MM Hunter, 2400dps, wolf pet.”
Pretty much thats all it takes.
I did get a “*glare* once back when I was a 70 in BC when one jerk asked what bow I had instead of the classic “specs?”
He got placed on my ignore list.
It doesn’t matter what you call it, it’s not to come when you call it.
I don’t know, TJ, but gettin’ around for him is a drag.
I did this the other day when I was looking for an extra dps for a pug group. A hunter whispered me, said he’d go, and I asked for his spec. When he said BM, I told him to go respec and check back with me. I personally hate SV and long for the return of BM, but I know how to go and spec correctly in the face of actual enjoyment. Anyone running BM atm is either unaware or purposefully trying to not be the best dps. Either way, they’re useless. If you want to RP with BM, or level with BM, go ahead, but don’t expect to get a lot of invites to serious raids or achievement runs.
Anyone who asks for stats/achievement for a pug is a terribad and/or mouthbreathing keyboard drooler who wants to get carried.
Skilled players can do well on the damage meters regardless of spec.
@Kory Taylor
You DO realize Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle was the best hunter weapon until the badge xbow of gayness, right? That person had more merit in his question than you could realize, it appears.
Skilled players can do well on the damage meters regardless of spec. -Agreed.
And why did you bring up the WSR? Countless Kara runs and countless cursing of the RNG for BBW never scored me that gun
When I get asked my stats I reply thusly:
“If you’re wondering about stats of a PuG, that means you’ve had many difficulties in a heroic designed to be ridiculously easy. I’m not going to run with some one who brings problems with him to a run.”
At that point I usually get an invite.
TJ, I call a Tauren a cow no matter how many legs he has. If a Tauren has 18 legs, he’s still a cow.
@Cholly – the SV spec does give the most dps, but just because someone is BM is no reason to not invite them. I am currently still BM in order to provide my guild with different buffs. its uselss having the same buffs overlapping. Even though BM is nerfed *tear* i still do more dps then a large number of players in 10/25-mans and heroics.
“For example, if have a combined hunter-pet DPS on a target dummy of 1500, but you have five points in Improved Tracking, you can add 5% more DPS since this talent isn’t used against the mechanical target dummies but will be used against everything in an instance. You can “legally” say you bring 1575DPS in this case, no problem.”
Sorry, but this is totally incorrect. It doesn’t boost your total DPS. It boosts the damage of most of your shots by 5%. Those are two totally different things. Your DPS will increase, but not by a solid 5%.
You do have a point there, TJ, I wondered that the first time I noticed some of the secret messages.
Am I the only one reading “What do YO call…”? I see no “u” until much later.
I never did get the WSR; of course, I only ran a handful of Operas and never got BBW. It’s one of those pieces I’d like for the bank, at least, and to run around doing dailies with.
Nassira, what damage are you doing that isn’t ranged? (Other than your pet and traps, obviously)
I read your math on this on your blog a while back, and your rationale confused me as much then as it does now.
If I do 1500dps with shots, and imp tracking increases the damage of each of those shots by 5%, that would be a 5% increase in overall dps from those shots.
Unless you’re talking about the fact that it doesn’t apply to traps/pets, which I don’t think anyone has asserted…
Just to clarify why I was confused:
Nassira’s math showed a 4.989% increase in damage from auto/steady/arcane/chimera/kill shots, and other than serpent sting I’m not sure what other damage the hunter was dealing? Unless it takes longer to fire the shots when you have IT, a 5% increase in damage on each will be a 5% increase in DPS on those shots.
…. mmmmph. I /hate/ that question.
I hated it on my hunter:
“What are your stats/Spec?”
… “Why do you care?”
They don’t know – /can’t/ know – if I’m competent by a couple of random number tossings and I guarantee they have no clue, even if they’ve played a hunter, why I may have chosen one talent over another to fit my playstyle. I especially loathe armory snobs who kick you out of a group because you don’t have precisely the gear they think you should.
No, I’m not talking about raids. You raid people are crazy. But if you’re level 80, still wearing a green ’cause you haven’t gotten lucky (or you just haven’t found anything better yet) – who are they to say you can’t do your job?
It’s gotten WORSE as I’ve switched to being a Death Knight. I have a nonstandard spec (pure hybrid) and I’m interested in Tanking (my DPS is nothing to write home about). My gear is /all/ tank gear, and I”m just now working on a DPS set. I /still/ put out 1400dps in a heroic (in Tank mode – more in DPS) and am quite capable of holding my own, thank you.
But the armchair quarterback – usually dropping spelling – throws something back like “lol u should be blood b/c thats better u dont do damage.” Or worse: “DKs cant tank ur stupid.” And there comes the kick.
… nevermind my guild considers me the best tank we got right now. (We ain’t the best, but c’mon – I can hold my own!)
… for the love of all that’s holy: if the guy can type, if he’s social, if he’s enchanted and gemmed and seems competent, give ‘em a /try/.
….
On a related note: I can usually tell how a group’s going to go by the relative command of the English language shown by the other members of my group. If they talk in /p, if they use actual sentences complete with a valiant attempt at spelling? We do /really well/. The more ‘leet’ or ‘textspeak’? The more useless the member. Almost good enough to be a /rule/.
My solution is to ask them to invite me to the group, beat on a target dummy for a minute or so, then report it in party chat.
They’re usually speechless after that.
Oh, geeze…I didn’t know there was protocol for such thing, TJ. My bad. It was a funny one, though!
~Tin
I think this question is relevant in only a couple of situations, the most common being a PuG Vault run in Wintergrasp. I’ve been in groups that couldn’t beat the enrage timer, so the amount of DPS you bring is relevant.
Having said that though, it’s a silly question otherwise. I can bring 2k dps and still wipe your 5-man because I’m incompetent. I can also bring 1300 dps, be 3rd or 4th on the DPS list, and still not hamper the group’s progress.
Personally, I’ve been asked the question on a number of occasions. How much I’m interested in the run determines my response. I will sometimes give them a hard Patchwerk 25 man number, or simply tell them “full epics, Naxx 25″ both of which gets me an invite usually.
Other times, I’ve simply said, “shtloads, you won’t be disappointed.” Anyone that pushes me on it, I’ll simply say “If you didn’t believe me before, then don’t worry about it. GL.” It’s not like DPS is hard to find, so they’ll have plenty of opportunity to find someone else willign to put up with silly questions.
@ The Elitist Jerk
you said
“You DO realize Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle was the best hunter weapon until the badge xbow of gayness, right?
No it wasn’t the best until the demented florist badge bow, EJ. There were a few others in between that were better….
Trinsian –
First of all, BRK said “combined DPS” and tacked 5% onto that. He first must subtract his pet’s DPS, as Improved Tracking does not count for that. Secondly, he has to remove all Serpent Sting damage.
Then from that total, he can add 5% of it, then add the other damages back in for the total DPS.
What he stated is inaccurate. It doesn’t just tack on 5% DPS. I wish it did. But it doesn’t.
Ooh question though –
Are you considering Ranged Damage as all physical ranged damage or simply all ranged damage? Serpent Sting is nature – we can’t be positive it counts unless someone has tested it. I should do that…
Whatever the hell you want!
I hate this question now, because I’m still Beast Master.
-Mike
“Spec, stats?”
“Let’s leave it that I’m awesome.”
They can take me and I’ll rule the Damage charts, or they can take someone else and they might not see the first boss. As for armory i try to log out in my fishing gear, just to mess with people’s heads for peeking.
@Papaoomowmow
Yes it was. It was proven it was better than Black Bow of the Betrayer. The logic behind this has been explained way TOO many times.
@Nassira
That’s a really good question as they have changed the tooltip quite a bit.
Thanks to BRK, TJ and all who replied. Much appreciated. See you in the next PuG with a ‘dont worry about it, im awesome’ and target dummy stats to back up if pressed
TJ, i call it Dead meat
The only time I’ve ever been asked that is on my druid when someone is looking for a tank. Never been asked that as a hunter…
If it’s not someone I know, I usually reply witth ‘what’s a spec?’.
Snobs are snobs are snobs. Unfortunately people don’t change, if they see themselves as the great uber warrior or some such, then they automatically think they know all there is to know about every class and spec. Its laughable really, but people are people are people. All I can say is pugs suck!
When somebody asks me for stats before a group I put them on ignore.
tell em, “36-24-36″
@The EJ
And now you forget Barrel-Bladed Longrifle. It was better, a lot better in fact. The reason it barely got mentioned was because it was a rare drop off a boss hardly anyone bothered killing.
Also, as soon as the 3:2 macro got accepted the best weapon (until Sunwell) was in fact not the Chicken-on-a-stick, but actually the Bristleblitz Striker. The Black Bow was slightly behind it, but still ahead of both WSR and CoRS. But only if you used the 3:2, it was proven time and again at… Guess where, Elitist Jerks.
For one who likes to correct people a lot you don’t seem to have done your homework.
I never get asked for spec and stats. Why?
I don’t PuG on my Hunter. It’s better to group with guildies and/or friends, or not to group at all.
“SV Hunter 3700ap, hitcapped”
are usually enough for me
All very interesting and mostly accurate if you look at it from a hunters perspective.
I have never asked a hunter for his specs when forming a group. The reason is most stats the non hunters would care about don’t tell you what you need to know. The one thing that will tell you if your getting a good hunter or an ok hunter is going to be the pet’s level.
I don’t care if you’ve got gorilla, a bear, a wolf or bunny. If you spec’d BM, MM or SV if your going to try and bring a 75 pet to my heroic or raid group…. uhm i don’t think so. It’s not because your a bad hunter but it’s because your missing out all the DPS you COULD bring to the group and the more hunter DPS goodness you bring, the faster the kills, the easier it is on the healer, the quicker to get that sweet letter opener off of King Ymiron.
I have never kicked out a hunter or not taken them with me because of stats. ever. I have asked them go get their 80 pet if I see the fluffy bundle of teeth they brought isn’t 80 and I have never had one complain about it. At least not to me. But i’m intimidating. Seriously…. my shoulders plates have spikes on them.
@Felandra
No I didn’t. I ran some tests and it turned out to be slightly worse than WSR because weapon damage actually overweighed speed.
As for 3:2 macro, you’re forgetting that it was not until /cast !Auto Shot script was introduced (and the hilarious double aimed/multishot bug) it didn’t exist. Plain and simple. Before that, /castsequence was the only way to account for clipping.
If you re-read what the person I originally replied to wrote, it was early TBC. That’s before 3:2 and way before chocobo-on-a-stick. Meaning I based my logic on that time. So if you had bothered taking this into account you wouldn’t make yourself look like an idiot.
@ Zonn
Heroics only exist to level pets. I mean it.
Not sure what I’d call it but it’s definitely hard to moove.
Now you are just being obnoxious for the sole sake of being that.
Never did you say ‘Early TBC’ or anything like that.
“You DO realize Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle was the best hunter weapon until the badge xbow of gayness, right? That person had more merit in his question than you could realize, it appears.”
The first 3:2 macro was adopted in november 2007, well ahead of Sunwell. Now who is looking like an idiot? You can’t go and chance the premiss of your comment when you never introduced the barriers you now claim to be in place. Suck it up, you are either insanely shortsighted or you just didn’t know.
Stop telling people wrong things, stop giving them bad advice, you might end up ruining playtime for someone if they are foolish enough to listen.
I still don’t see a rebuttal to the main point of my comment.
WSR 1:1 > BBS 3:2 unless you have an old dps chart to prove me otherwise.
(I don’t remember if ZA was introduced at the same time as /cast !Auto Shot, as you needed 25 haste rating to reduce BBS to 2.14 speed which provided the closest ratio to 3:2)
hahaha now he’s meek
blasted jerks
@Zonnica if I intend to bring a lower level pet into a Heroic, I _always_ ask the group if they’re OK with it. Even so, a 75 pet won’t make it into the instance with me unless it’s just friends. The earliest I’ll bring them in with me is 77 so I can get most of the misses taken care of through Hit Rating pass through.
My usual response is “I’ll show you when I get there.” Then I flash my Champion of the Frozen Wastes title their way. After the first 4k boss they’re usually eating from my hand. BWAHAHAHA
Thank Elune that I am almost done with damn heroics. Just need to get the Hemorrhaging Circle from H Gun, then I’ll have all BiS pre-raid.
Then it’s just Guild raids and VoA PuGs.
The last week, people have been asking hunters their spec before inviting them into a pug for one reason: The forums are ablaze on how BM and MM are worthless specs…and that’s gone into the game that if you’re one of these two specs, you should be sat.
And let them ignore the fact that a good hunter, whatever his spec, can out-DPS any average player out there…as BM I led the charts of -every- pug group I joined…and I was the top 5 on most raid fights in the guild. BM can hold their own, but the idea on the servers is that it can’t, because anyone left playing BM is a huntard.
I have an addon that automatically translates any whispers I get asking about my stats or spec into “I’m a jackass moron who wets my pants at the thought of running a heroic dungeon.”
Seriously, fuck that noise. I don’t have the patience to run heroics with people who are that scared of them.
What if the question was about specs (that is, talent builds) and not stats? I mean, for instance, a friend of a friend of yours who was in some raiding guild who needed a hunter to fill in an unexpectedly empty slot asked what your spec is and not stats? What if, basically, they don’t care that you have tons of agility, loads of attack power and bucketloads of crit and the right amount of hit… or even how much DPS you can actually do… as long as you were the proper “spec”?
What if that friend of a friend was told off severely for being so noobish as to invite a hunter-of-not-the-proper-spec? What if the “noob spec” was BM, and the BM hunter wants to let them know about his pet’s own “talent” spec to convince the raid that the pet is “specced” properly for DPS… and, therefore, not really a “noob”?
I only ask to clarify since the post seems to assume that the one who’s asking is asking for something legitimate (would you take, for instance, a hunter with only 1.5k RAP and only 2% hit rating?) as opposed to my usual experience of raid leaders reading up on what the “DPS spec” currently is and unless you are that spec (hence the “spec” question) you are not only a noob but will become a liability in the raid. If the question was meant to be that, how does one respond? Or should we just stay clear of raids like that?
@Cholly
If one is pugging on a heroic progression raid, where DPS needs to be maxed in order to beat the enrage timers or to meet achievement requirements, then maybe… maybe it can merit a respectful request to re-spec that IMHO the hunter has ever right to say “no” to.
But if it’s heroic 5-mans, then that request is not only unnecessary but also disrespectful and rude. I mean, c’mon—we have people all over the place “complaining” that the 5-man content is “ezymode lol” and you need top DPS just to defeat it? Even a group dressed only in blue quest/reputation rewards have been able to tackle heroic 5-mans, and even “weak” DPS classes do very well in there… and a hunter has to respec to the top DPS spec just to make you feel comfortable?
To assume that those who choose to remain BM (or MM) instead of flavor-of-the-month is either “unaware or purposely trying” to not be the best just shows how much you know. What if 2 hunters, with the same gear, one SV and one BM, and the SV hunter out-DPSes the BM… but only by 200 DPS? Heck, I’d take the BM hunter. Why? With his nerfed “spec” the beastmaster approached the survivalists DPS to within spitting distance… meaning that the beastmaster was purposely doing the best DPS despite the handicap. And the survivalist? Yes, might have topped the DPS charts, but why a lead of only 200 DPS? Who’s really “purposely” not doing the best DPS?
One reason why I wish that someday all hunter specs do equal (note, not comparable, but exactly equal) DPS, so these sorts of questions cease to exist. Then the question of whether they should bring a mage or a hunter (any spec) will come back (/shudder).