And That’s With No Raid-Buffs
You know what, we get a lot of emails from people asking us HOW in the WORLD we’re able to do SO much damage in Naxx when we’re not even HIT-CAPPED!
Well, folks, the answer is that when we log out, we’re not always in our 25-man gear. Sometimes we log out with our heroic-gear on, in which case that Sphere of Red Dragon’s Blood isn’t equipped. Well with our latest gear-upgrades, guess what, cochise?
We’re over the hit cap.
YES! Over, we say! We almost always have a Draenai hunter in our raid so we get Heroic Presence, taking our chance to Miss from 8% to 7%.
7 * 32 = 224 Hit Rating to eliminate Misses, and we’re at 245.
REGEM BRK! REGEEEEEMM!! We here ya screaming.
No.
Why?
Because sometimes that Draenai can’t make the raid, like yesterday. Goodbye Heroic Presence:
8* 32 = 256 Hit Rating to eliminate Misses, and we’re still at 245.
YOU’RE NOT HIT-CAPPED BRK! More screaming, jeebuz.
Folks. Calm down. Chill-pill. Doggie-downer.
If we have no Draenai, we’re eleven points from being hit-capped. 11 / 32 = 0.34% chance to Miss, and we’ll take it.
If we do have our warm and sweet-smelling Draenai in the raid, we’re twenty-one points over our hit-cap. We’ll take that too, seeing as how we have to be ready for non-Draenai raiding.
Hit Rating is the best investment you can make. It’s more powerful than Agility, RAP, Crit, or anything else. But that doesn’t mean you have to be a slave to being exactly at your hit-cap. A little over, a little under, it’s OK.
Do you understand that? Doing 25-man raids with a Hit Rating of 20 is Bad, and there’s no excuse for that. But that’s different that regemming every raid in order to be “exquisitely precise” with your Hit Rating.
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“A little over, a little under, it’s OK.”
A little over is okay. A little under is not. Under any circumstance. I’d rather have 15 points over the cap than 1 point under it.
0.34 > 0. There’s still a chance, however small, to miss. That miss could be the difference between #1 and #2 on recount.
So I disagree with your statement here.
in the grand scheme of things one or two misses in a fight is not going to mean the difference between beating a boss and not
#1 – Recount is increasingly becoming trash. Not really worth the memory to load.
#2 – If the small amount of DPS lost per small chance of miss is the difference between success and failure for your raid, then you really need to analyze whether or not your mob is ready for that content. I would be leaning toward the HELL NO end of the spectrum.
#3 – There is no #3, but I felt there should be.
Yes, it really is.
Perhaps the day will come when all the jerks out there realize that:
One’s success is not built upon a focus of equipping gear to reach a singular magic number.
That the difference between success and failure rarely has to do with gear but much more with player-skill.
The there are already lots of places on the Internet where slavish devotion to mathematical WoW-analysis is worshiped and those that do not genuflect towards the same god are ridiculed, but that one place this religion is not the law of the land and it’s high-prophets the religious police is this blog.
Do your spreadsheets, spend hours at target-dummies, and respec daily to always have — what the current DPS-soothsayers prescribe — is the One and Only Spec. It’s your money; do what you gotta do.
But be prepared to be challenged when you try to sell that false-god here.
BRK READERS! You are free to enjoy the game without being beholden to the magic-number-holders, the spec-scoffers, and those who use insults and putdowns to make themselves feel superior.
Go Play.
Have Fun.
…
Just don’t roll MM.
Just thought I’d like to remind you that the draenei buff is still party only, not raid wide.
“exquisitely precise”
But I thought TJ was teaching you to be exquisitely precise?
; – )
What about your pet getting only 7% because of that though?”?!?!?!?!?1/1//1
My big problem currently is finding gear upgrades that DON’T increase my +hit.
321 is…a bit much.
(I’ve got one +8 gem that needs to go, but otherwise need to find upgrades with less +hit)
Bravo BRK!
However, if the “fun” that you seek within the game involves playing it at it’s highest level then it is also perfectly acceptable to chase the perfect set up as well.
The problem here is not so much an argument about right vs wrong. The problem is more about the delivery of said point of view. TEJ is quite correct in saying that if you aspire to be perfect that you will always be at or above hit cap. And if you have access to the correct gear and gems and enchants then you will use them.
BRK is also correct in saying that it matters little to the average player. Even the average raider will not always have access to the gear/enchants. You can perform adequately without being hit capped. It’s not perfect but it is acceptable to 95% of players. I try to avoid raiding without being hit capped but I am not going to spend 400g to get those last handful of +hit.
Relax guys! You’re answers are both acceptable. Just not to each other.
@TEJ – Many of us appreciate your input. However sometimes your message can be lost due to the method of delivery. You can say you don’t care what the mouth breathing keyboard droolers think. However your continued input on this site indicates that you actually do care. *gasp
Those of us that aspire to maximising our toons hear the message and attempt to act accordingly. I understand that to be the “perfect” raider that you must be hitcapped. What BRK does is to educate the masses. He does that extremely well. For the “masses” a couple of points is acceptable.
Cheers
Kol
A few months ago BRK, your last quote would have been “Just don’t roll SV.” But I’m pretty sure that’s part of the subtle point
.
Personally, I never changed from BM, except for one night on the target dummy. Didn’t enjoy it. Trap-dancing, making sure I’m 31 yards, watching my wasp swing his depressingly weak and atrophied little stinger in sick imitation of a real pet, were quite simply not enjoyable. I’m a hunter, I want to see my devilsaur ripping faces. In the grand scheme of things, I do believe a gigantic devilsaur bearing down on somebody would be more intimidating and more deadly than some fool “phooting” his crossbow at me!
However, I absolutely cannot help but agree with you. The difference between 7.95 and 8.0% hit is not enough to make a difference. Lets say you deal 250k damage to some boss. If you miss with one autoshot, that’s at most 2k damage?
Elitist Jerk, if 2k damage is making the difference in your raid, I’m very sorry for you. However, having read your blog, I think you’re just a sad lonely man who has nothing better to do than spout obscenities at people and justify yourself with a superior (in your own head, at least) attitude.
However, I do apologize if my post seems to denigrate your opinion. Certainly, there is a difference between 7.95 and 8.0% hit. If you believe it necessary to re-gem or whatever it is you supposed min-maxers do, by all means, do so. By the way, I haven’t been by EJ for a while, are we certain it’s 8.0%, not 8.2 or 9.0% now?
But think about it this way. If Tiger Woods were playing golf with a 50 year old set of wooden clubs, and I had prototype Nike equipment, who do you think would win?
He would, of course. A good hunter will always beat a bad hunter.
If Tiger Woods were playing against a clone of himself, both with identical sets of equipment, do you think he would spend half an hour aligning his ball correctly so that his club face will strike perfectly?
No. It simply wouldn’t be worth the time to achieve such a small degree of benefit.
If he did, would he win? Possibly. It’s certainly not guaranteed, though.
It’s also possible, that the second Tiger beats the first Tiger by three strokes.
Will a very good survival hunter be #1 in dps EVERY SINGLE TIME? Absolutely not. It will always fluctuate.
Rather than spend hundreds of gold perfecting my gear, I spend my time perfecting a rotation, macros to control my pet and shots, and I do it without sissy addons like Power Aura. In short, I enjoy being a master of the GAME, of the CLASS, not a master of some silly spreadsheet.
Well stated Kolan. Very well stated, indeed.
You made the point that I lost track of
. Play how you have fun.
And I do apologize EJ, I came a bit strong against your opinion, as Kolan said, perhaps it’s because of your delivery.
However, just play how you have fun.
Have fun. Have fun. Have fun. I can’t seem to say that enough.
This is why I like being a Draenei hunter.
I’d also like to point out that hit rating, and capping hit is not necessarily even ideal in some cases — for example, retribution paladins can actually (Rawr, spreadsheet) end up doing more damage by socketing 16 strength gems and ignoring e.g. a +4 haste bonus rather than socketing an 8 strength/8 hit gem there. In that case, it’s 11 AP vs. 8 hit, and the AP ends up boosting damage by a greater amount.
This is also the place that hit food can come in handy, if you want to drop more of your +hit gems, BRK — hit food (Worg Tartare or Snapper Extreme) is about 1.2%, so it’s a good substitute for having a draenei in the party. If there is a Draenei, feel free to load up on AGI, crit, or AP food, or just enjoy a feast.
I have a few questions about BM.
First off, is it still worth using a steady shot macro if my latency is high enough that the GCD prevents me from doing smooth consecutive SS’s?
Also, is it worth getting two more +16 hit gems if I’m 1% below cap but at most I raid pugs and pug heroics? (not guaranteed a draenei)?
Finally, is it better to use Staff of Trickery with +85 AP (more ap for me) or dual wield Fang of Truth with +50 AP on each (more hit)?
I’ve been ’spec-jumping’ to see which spec I find most fun while still doing decent dps, so after reading that BM is back on here, I decided to ditch surv for a bit as I was bored of trying to do dailies while meleeing everything with a less-than-optimal pet tank.
Caranniann of Zul’jin US
Being below hit cap *bugs* me on some fundamental level. It feels like… wearing shoes without socks or something. Whether or not it impairs my dps is irrelevant, it just feels *wrong* to me. I gem to be hit-capped at all times more for my own peace of mind than for any other reason.
Losing a +16 agility gem for a +16 hit or +8 hit/+whatever gem makes sense if you’re 16 or more hit rating from being capped. Under normal circumstances, I would be one of the “REGEM BRK” chorus members. The presence of a Draenei makes things… muddy.
Every +16 hit gem is a gem that *isn’t* contributing to other stats, be they agility, crit, attack power, etc. Depending on how often the spacegoat shows up in BRK’s party, pursuing the hit cap could actually gimp his average dps.
It will probably end up being a moot point once BRK has more gear. If he’s anything like me, he’ll try to grab ’side-grade’ gear that has extra hit on it, so whenever he’s short he can swap what he’s wearing without having to pay for re-gemming.
(And no, I’m not saying take side-grades for yourself when they could be upgrades for others. Common sense and courtesy still apply.)
As a side note, it’s also important to remember the financial side of the issue. Gold you spend on gems is gold you can’t spend on consumables and enchants. Constant re-gemming can get *very* expensive, especially on servers like mine where quality gems run for around 100g each.
Side note number 2, as someone else mentioned the use of +hit food might be a good way to get around having to putz around with gems or gear swapping.
Also and this might just be me…but 1% hit increase is what 1% dmg increase! But now one 1% crit increase is? …Mortal shots… ahh more than 1% dmg increases! Yes even if you miss some shots…
Hit over caped is not a good thing if you wanna max your dps in any case, because you don’t use the over cap and it could be ap, agil, crit or int. all better than for your dps then saying I rather run over caped.
It’s more likely that being a little under the hit cap will give you better dps then a little above it.
So I agree with BKR, the diff in dmg won’t be all that shocking as long as you keep floating around the magical nr.
I carry a +hit trinket and a +crit trinket. Instantly swappable hit-cappedness. Voila!
The real problem with being slightly under the hit cap, as a BM Hunter, is the 1% your wee friend loses.
That said, maximizing your DPS for all but a scant few encounters is more or less meaningless right now.
@ BRK
Preliminary: 25-man raiding point of view only.
“Yes, it really is.”
Nope. If you strive to deliver the most damage (aka do what your class was designed to), you shouldn’t get anywhere near a green instance portal unless you’re hitcapped.
“Perhaps the day will come when all the jerks out there realize that:”
As one of the jerks, I can safely say that I won’t. Personally, that is.
BTW, Elitist Jerkism is what transformed me from the average huntard to one of the server’s best hunters. That and a saying “WTF am I doing, time to shape the hell up or I’ll never see Sunwell”.
“One’s success is not built upon a focus of equipping gear to reach a singular magic number.”
True. However this magic number WILL help you do more DPS even if you do spam the old 3:2 macro.
It’s also definitely not singular. While hitcap is the most important stat hands down, a delicate balance of crit and AP must also be taken in consideration.
“That the difference between success and failure rarely has to do with gear but much more with player-skill.”
I don’t take skill in my consideration because… let’s admit it once and for all, hunters don’t take skill to play in pve. We were facerolling 1:1 -> 3:2 -> steady shot/focus dumps macros throughout TBC and until 3.0.8. (don’t tell me keeping a 15s debuff is hard)
Therefore I assume that a raider who is in 25-mans at least knows their class well enough to time cooldowns and manage GCDs properly. Hell, the spreadsheet even tells you how to do it.
“There are already lots of places on the Internet where slavish devotion to mathematical WoW-analysis is worshiped and those that do not genuflect towards the same god are ridiculed…”
I have ridiculed other people. That’s true. However I also told them to HF out of my raids later.
“Do your spreadsheets”
Only after I (and you) did some theorycrafting.
“spend hours at target-dummies”
Incomplete scaling to derive meaningful data.
“respec daily to always have — what the current DPS-soothsayers prescribe”
Extremity. Max DPS specs do not change on a daily basis. Oh and coincidentally I was able to predict the max DPS specs point-by-point independently from EJ and reaching exactly the same conclusions.
“But be prepared to be challenged when you try to sell that false-god here.”
I accept your challenge.
“Have Fun.”
My fun is doing as much damage as mathematically possible. If your (not particularly BRK, general reader here) fun is /patting your lasercat, fine by me. Just stay out of my raids.
@ Other guy
“Will a very good survival hunter be #1 in dps EVERY SINGLE TIME? Absolutely not. It will always fluctuate. ”
I’ve been #1 on every single patchwerk until last reset since 3.0.8.
Feel free to think what you like, isn’t it great that this is allowed?
@Kolan
Someone is wrong on the… INTERNET!
@ Nick
I disagree. DPS is directly related to your own performance as a raider. When I first joined my guild and they saw me outDPS the other hunters (with superior gear, identical spec and macro) by 200 and 400 respectively on benchmark bosses I was given the fastest CL in guild history.
1,) BRK, is that RAP w/ or w/out Dragonhawk?
2.) Do you have Arcane in a macro or do you weave it manually?
3.) Do you use Manito’s?
Gracias
@TEJ
Oh noes!!!
*Flails arms
*Calls Police
*Alerts media
Oh wait….nobody cares.
You know what the best thing about The Elitist Jerk is don’t you?
It’s that he conforms to the truth in advertising laws.
I’ve been a professional educator for 15 years and I can tell you that the way the message is delivered is almost as important as the message being delivered.
This MIGHT be why BRK’s blog is so popular…..because he know how to make a point without making an ass of himself…
Having typed all this I do understand that you won’t care because I’ve worked alongside people such as yourself for years. The range of your concern for others ends at the tip of your nose.
hit rating is also more important for SV hunters, because they can miss an exp shot which can be like 15k dmg, whereas a BM hunter can only miss a 4k or w/e steadyshot
@TEJ
“Nope. If you strive to deliver the most damage (aka do what your class was designed to), you shouldn’t get anywhere near a green instance portal unless you’re hitcapped.”
I guess it comes down to “what you strive to deliver”. For me, putting hours and hours into research and dummy-testing is not work an extra 100dps. :-/
As long as you have can have fun AND still clear your raids.
Well i would have to agree with this a lot i am a little under and i do miss but guess what i know how to play and what gear to get and what to socket so i am showing up #1 or #2 on the recount all the time it mostly depends on the skill and knowing what to do when (witch i guess is skill)
Also a reply to the first comment ya also long as your helping out the raid and not dyeing every boss cause of stupid reasons its fine to be under as long as you are not putting out 1k dps you are fine.
more people like to raid for fun and not everyone thing has to be perfect do ur job in a raid and you are FINE
I wish to hell I could DROP some of my hit rating.
I’m wasting iLevels that could go to better stats. Currently sitting at 284 HR (I was 315 before I traded bracers out) and I’m a Draenei…. such a waste of possible stats.
Now if I wasn’t working during US Prime Time game hours I might be able to raid more than just random PUGs and get something worth using.
One question I do have…. has anyone looked into the decrease rate on Hit? At what rate do I start losing enough DPS to be of importance? What is the scaling? I have to assume it’s not a linear decline (.3% missing hit is not 50% better than .6% missing hit) so where is the ‘critical’ threshold?
Top post BRK, especially the later comment.
I was under the hit cap for basically all BC and was always miles ahead of everyone else on the total damage output despite being completely undergeared by comparison. I’m totally and utterly with BRK on this one. There’s more to wow than 0.34 of a %. To make that 0.34 into some kind of idol just means worshipping a false god.
There are things that are more important.
Several things, BRK your off with the hit cap. 32.79 rating is required per percentage according to the best math available, this means you need 262/263 to be hit capped(230 if you have a Space Goat).
For BM especially I have to go with the Elitist Jerk here. Currently your pet only picks up hit in full percentages so it is very important that get to or above that 263 mark or your giving up a not insignificant amount of dps(also Focused Aim doesn’t transfer hit to pets either). In BC I would’ve agreed with the sentiment its fine to be a few points short of the cap, in WotLK its more important to hit that cap.
Brk, BM Hunters, WoW players, Wiccans…. a similar theme could be shared…
:An it harm none, do as thou will:
Ok now if its true that your pet only picks up hit in full % then not beeing over the magic nr woudl result in a possible bigger dps loss.
Intresting, gonna look at that
I thought the hit cap was 263… Am I wrong?
Actually hit cap is 263 (8%) and only integer part of your hit transfers to the pet. So if you have 262 hit rating your pet will have 7% hit chance..and will miss a lot, which is a big deal for BM hunter.
@ TEJ.
I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying – hit cap is the first thing I max out / balance when getting a gear upgrade, even if it means spending 3-400 gold re-gemming and re-enchanting my gear. I also read EJ forums nearly every day looking for news and pointers, PTR and live stuff. In short I find it fun to min-max and be the very best dps in raids that I can be.
BUT there are places / fora for this elitism, and if that is what you are after you also know where to get a hold of that stuff. I spend 3 years raiding as a rogue, playing nothing but this toon, when I came across BRK’s site and grew an interest in the hunter class. This site is where I learned to chain trap, jump shoot, pay attention to different things in raids etc. I still read BRK’s site every single day, ’cause – you know – this is where you can get correct, non-elitist information for the casual but serious hunter, in all aspects of the class. And that is what makes this site so great.
As for your derogatory remarks on the reason people play this game – /patting your lasercat – thats just uncalled for and – yeah well…. elitist. Wrong forum. Wrong assumption as to why we play this game. And if you re-read this forum, pick any post you like, I am quite sure you will not find a single post or comment
where anyone is asking to be a part of your raids.
And you know what – lighten up a bit.
“Just don’t roll MM.
” “/patting your lasercat”
whats the difference?
Either they’re both funny, or both put-downs.
Charso, it’s clear that TEJ and me are viewing from a different POV, we are raiders (I don’t know him) and this blog is for begginners and casuals.
There is no problem with this, different world.
The only problem I have that BRK write not 100% true things.
If a beginner ask me what to do, I would reccomend him BM, but I also would tell him that if he wants the max DPS, then he could specc to SV.
It’s the same thing with hitcap: Even 1 hit is worth more then 32 AP as BM, if you are under hitcap.
It can be forgotten by a casual, or if you havent got enough money for a gem.
But it can’t be forgotten if you are aiming the max DPS.
Just one thing I asked for: Pls, play with the spec you like (it’s your game
), but do no try to protect it with false reasons. 
Ok so just that i’m clear, hunter pets do not get the +hit from the space goats?
When I started raiding in wotlk I wondered how I was gonna reach hitcap. Now when I’m in full ilvl213 and above hit comes naturally. I have 312 and can’t really get rid of it for something more useful.
Now I hate hitrating for being everywhere
So, what hitcap we have ? I always thought that it’s 274hit but in this moment I’m a little dazed.
Today? Definitely not. In BC? Maybe not. But for those of us who’ve been raiding since Molten Core and had our philosophies forged in raids where one missed Tranquilizing Shot COULD and DID end up meaning the difference between a kill and a wipe (I am looking squarely at you, Princess Huhuran), we absolutely refuse to buy into this mindset.
Because what if it ever becomes like that again? Be prepared, I say.
If it works for you for now, then rock on, but be prepared and aware of what you’ll need to do to cap out if the day comes where it’s ever needed. But you know that, I’m sure. :3
Now you have me confused as well. I am a 25 man raider. Full clears in one night of Naxx. We one shot OS2 and VOA and clear Maly with little issue. I am usually in top 5 dps. SV spec. My hit rating is 135. At 33 points per 1%, as a draenai with heroic presenceI only need 7% to get capped. With 3/3 focused aim that drps it to 4%. 4×33=132. Hence I am over hit cap. I look at the recount and I don’t miss. Says meh pet doesn’t miss either. So unless recount is completely broken and my dps really isn’t in the 4k area then maybe I am missing something? 260ish hit rating? Confused. Other 2 hunters in our raid…also SV..have same hit rating as I do +/- a little. Top hunter in raid is consistently around 5k dps wth a 140ish hit rating. I understand that FA does not apply to pets, but I am not seeing the misses. His pet does 800ish dps and mine does 650ish( he has alot better gear than I do). I don’t see any misses.
@ confused
When you add all of you hit contributions together talents and racial and from gear you get 300 hitrating
So you are way over the cap
“Just don’t roll MM.”
Aww
Ya know, as long as YOU’RE having fun, YOUR guild is happy with how you’re going, and YOU’RE clearning content, it shouldn’t matter if you’re a casual raider or one of those number-crunching, spreadsheet-punching lifers. A game is a game is a game is a game. What I find fun =! to what someone else finds fun =! to what you find fun.
…. actually, EJ –
I hate to tell someone who’s very mathy they’re wrong, but you’re wrong. Essentially, a 0.1% miss chance equates to one shot missing in one thousand, of course – in five stacks of ammo, one bullet or arrow’s going to go wide. While, yes, the probability isn’t cumulative – you’d have an exceptionally slim chance of missing twice in a row, in fact.. well.
Statistically speaking? A 3.4 arrows in 1000 miss rate is utterly irrelevant across the time it takes to fire a thousand arrows. Or, to put it more succinctly – if hit rate directly goes to DPS, and your DPS is, say, 3500… you gain 11 DPS over whatever time it takes for you to fire a thousand arrows.
Assuming white damage on a 1.7 bow (as this seems to be common) – this means you’d, statistically speaking, have to shoot for 29 /minutes/. Straight. Against a single target. Before you can guarantee any significant, demonstrable advantage over someone firing the same bow with that difference in hitcap.. and that’s at 3500 DPS.
Put yet another way, LAG is a more significant factor than hit rate at that miniscule percentage… even on auto shot, which is basically perfectly tuned to your own latency (as your client still fires the auto shot, interestingly enough), assuming an average latency of 150ms with the server side correction ‘clipping’ your damage as it does.
This doesn’t address pet damage, no – and it may actually be more significant to get that full point on the pet side; I can’t speak for that.
In fact, I suspect – if you run the numbers – at that miniscule 11DPS over 28 minutes nonsense, you’d be better off with half a percentage point of crit than worrying about half a percentage point of hit. If you REALLY want to fine-tune things, anyway. You should look into that. Maybe swapping a gem will give you an extra 3DPS on Patchwerk if you’re willing to tinker with the absolutes.
But, honestly? Statistically speaking, your damage in any boss fight is absolutely identical to any other equivalent hunter with a 0.34% lower hit rate than yours. Boss fights just, simply, don’t last long enough.
I am curious what an extra half-percentage-point of crit would do, though. S’ inneresting, there.
I just want to emphasize these points:
“this means you need … 263 to be hit capped(230 if you have a Space Goat).”
“Currently your pet only picks up hit in full percentages”
“(also Focused Aim doesn’t transfer hit to pets either)”
Being even a fraction of a percent under the hit cap from your equipped gear as BM is sacrificing a significant amount of pet DPS. For raiding that means 8% from gear, 7% if you’ve got a Draenai in your party.
“Nope. If you strive to deliver the most damage (aka do what your class was designed to), you shouldn’t get anywhere near a green instance portal unless you’re hitcapped.”
I disagree. If you want to deliver the most damage you should maximize the DPS you generate without regard to Hit rating. If you read the Elitist Jerks Forum from which you are trying to share glory, you will see that this is exactly what they recommend, and that they specifically condemn chasing some single magic number (in hit rating or anything else).
Put another way would you pick the last point of hit rating you need to get capped or 100 AGI?
Thank You Kindly.
Grimm, you are missing the point.
If you miss 0.5%, you miss 0.5% normal damage plus the crit chance.
For example, I you miss 4 hit rating (about 0,1%), and you are a well, but not perfectly geared Naxx hunter (missing about 5-6 item from the perfect gear), and you did about 5160 dps theoretically.
If you got those 4 hit rating, you got 100% hit, and you gain 22 dps. (5181 dps)
For the same DPS increase you would need 39 crit rating OR 26 Agility OR 52 AP.
Do you see the point?
(As SV hit is not worth so-so much, because we care lesser with our pet’s hit (he got only hit in full percentage). As SV 4 hit’s DPS gain is the same as 18 crit OR 25 AP OR 10 agi, still a huge difference.)
Fact: Hit is the most valuable stat until we get to hitcap. (Best DPS/point value.)
(This is the conclusion that you can see everywhere where hunters are theorycrafting. (EJ, TKAsomething, etc.))
@TEJ:
I don’t treat it differently, it always a bad thing, the only difference is the exact DPS-loss.
(More hit point is always bigger DPS-gain (for any specc) then the same points from any other stats. (Till hitcap))
I was in a 5 man heroic on my pally I had a little over hit cap around 8% the other ret pally in the group was under only about 7% but his crit was at 28% and mine was at 20% he beat me by 300 dps on recount….
Some interesting comments… I’d like to throw a little math in there, though it may bounce off some of the readers here. I’m assuming that ranged attacks use the same one-roll hit table that melee combat attacks do, as they seem to use the same miss %, etc.
0.5% miss means exactly that – 0.5% of your “hits” will become “misses”. This is slightly less than 0.5% of your damage due to crits (which will hit for 2x, or 2.3x on specials). Assuming a 30% crit rate, your attack table would look like this:
0.005 – miss (*0)
0.300 – crit (*2 or *2.3)
0.695 – hit (*1)
Total – 1.295 or 1.385 * non-crit, non-miss dps.
Adding 16 hit rating would lead to the following hit table:
0.300 – crit (*2 or *2.3)
0.700 – hit
Total 1.3 or 1.39 * non-crit dps
So you’d expect to see about a 0.38% dps increase by covering that last 0.5% miss.
Crit is generally worse than hit because your total dps is already increased by the previous crit that you’ve got, plus some of your damage (10%, maybe – Serpent’s Sting and such) is a DoT and so it can’t crit. This is counterbalanced somewhat by Mortal Shots increasing the crit bonus on your existing damage, but 1% crit will only increase your dps by 1% when your crit chance is very low, in the 1-5% range or so.
I just want to put it out there that now Heroic Presence is back to group only. Many of us was under the impression it was raid wide back when they fixed totems and auras. We first noticed this in raid following 3.08 or the hotfix after.
Many has said this never was raid wide. I am pretty sure it was although I cannot find the patch notes denoting the change. If anyone has documentation or would like to discuss I would love to be educated.
… I hate losing posts. Ugh. Silly WP error…
@EJ –
BUt you’re overlooking the factor of Opportunity.
That is to say, I appreciate that you’re attempting to control all of the factors you can, but my point in making that statement is to say that someone who is 0.34% under the hitcap is not suddenly unworthy to join a Naxx-25 raid.
In fact, if we could somehow make all things equal, and then pull that measily four points of hit off of a you-clone, I’d go so far as to say it’s a 50/50 tossup as to which one of you tops the meter in an instance. That ends up being true simply because the RNG for the damage spread on your weapon, whatever that weapon is, is more statistically relevant than that miss rate.
Which means that a hunter, say, just starting to raid, getting kicked or not being allowed to join a raid group over a miniscule stat deficiency is elitism of the worst sort, and denies the simple fact that that player may be stattted out as best as possible given the gear that’s dropped.
I do not deny that you’ve every right (and should!) control all the relevant factors you can – but, seriously, sweating a 0.34% miss rate on a hunter trying to get into raiding to the point of kicking them, as seems to be implied, is.. well. Lame.
And other hunters should know – control all the variables you can, but don’t think that just ’cause you’re a point or two out of optimal you’re somehow gimped. And /that/ goes for any class at all.
@MightyDuck:
Quote:
If you miss 0.5%, you miss 0.5% normal damage plus the crit chance.
/Quote:
…. this isn’t true. Not according to everything I’ve read – unless the base model we’ve all come to use is wrong.
As I grok things, your hit and effect are a single die roll determined by rolling against a table. Thus, when you send ‘I shoot’ to the server, the effect you have is done by a formula something vaguely like:
Hit + Base Hit – Miss – Avoidance Rate, where Crit converts HIT to CRIT effects.
If you have a 30% hit rate (after avoidance and everything) and a 30% Crit rate, all of your hits will be crits. A 35% crit rate is wasteful, in this scenario, as you don’t have enough HITS to convert.
Since it’s one die roll – crit has only a single relationship to hit: as long as your crit rate is less than or equal to your hit rate, you’re good. If you exceed your hit rate, it’s wasteful.
The /miss/ rate is prefigured before the die is rolled – and the crit slots are already assigned. Missing (again, assuming you hit more than you crit) has absolutely no relevance to crit due to the linear nature of the roll-and-table setup.
If I’m wrong, fix me there.
“As for pet damage, IIRC hit% gets transferred to pets on a rounded down basis, which means that 0.34% difference to you will mean 1% difference for the pet. Since melee attacks can get dodged and parried this becomes increasingly meaningful.”
You would be correct on the rounding down of pet hit TEJ. Patchwerk kill for me on Wednesday, 261 hit rating. (7.96% hit) I didn’t miss a single shot but my pet missed 3 auto-attacks and 1 claw. He also had a couple of dodges but that’s beside the point.
“I didn’t say “sacrifice all your crit and AP just not to miss”, I said that it’s your most important stat hands down. ”
I did quote what you said. You are, of course, welcome to scroll backwards to see what you actually wrote.
“Why not both? It’s infinitely easier to tailor your gear than encounter this choice.”
So you will sending me that +1 hit, +100 AGI gem? Thanks.
“Also my philosophy comes directly from classic days where a missed Tranq Shot could and would mean a wipe.”
So what you are saying is that you have an outdated philosophy that being hit-capped is more important than actual DPS?
“Be glad I don’t handle invites.”
Yup, already there.
Thank You Kindly.
I have made deliberate and transparent efforts to subvert the new comment moderation policies. I am well aware that I am one of the causes of the new comment policy and knew that I would be one of the first to be moderated.
Even though being moderated would not keep me from participating in discussions and would merely hold my comment up briefly while it was checked for politeness and respect, I felt as though I was above the system. The simple rules of no more insults, no more ridicule and no more elitism do not suit me. So you understand, of course, why I HAD to go around the system.
Not only do I not show respect to fellow commenters and those with differing opinions, goals and strategies, I also show no respect for BRK. He has very few rules, and they all boil down to basic human decency. I cannot handle the adult responsibilities of civilized discussion, and for that reason, all of my comments since the comment policy went into effect will now be removed.
I’m probably not sorry, I probably think I’m the one being wronged, and I’m probably not going to be missed.
Yours sincerely,
The elitisTJerk
Ok, I admit it. I chuckled a bit on the inside.
Regarding hit-cap…
Am I capped? yes. Do I always try to be? yes.
And if you are in current end-game content, it’s not hard to be capped, esp if you are a spacegoat or live near one.
But… do I expect a fresh 80 starting Naxx to be capped? Not really. I do expect them to make an effort to get close, gemming and chanting properly, but I’m not going to expect them to push other stats completely aside to gem and chant just for hit, when the next gear upgrade will change all that.
Or put it this way…
Nax10, not required to be capped, but you should be close.
Maly25 and OS25+2D, you damn well better be capped.
And EJ, I respect your desire that everyone in your raid put forth the same effort as you do. But remember that’s your raid. Others role differently. I personally get miffed when there are truly lazy folks in the raid who aren’t even bringing their B game when it comes to prepping their gear, so I do understand.
I doubt that.
@ EJ, go smoke it then.
And moderation be damned, EJ, your attitude is egotistical enough to make me not bother coming back here. Seya BRK..
Hitting the cap should be a baseline for raiding. If you’re still working on it, then I can understand, but a regular toon, who has access to good gear – just get hit capped. My non-dranei toons aimed to not depend on having one in the run. Its safer.
Real hunters roll without big blue space squid. Just sayin
FOR THE HORDE!!!!
I’m currently having trouble with the hit cap, I’m at it now (Horde side, no space goat help) but it’s costing me a talent point in focused aim and to be frank half my gear is blues and I’ve been noticing there’s not much hit on the naxx 10 epics i’ll be aiming for (look don’t touch, my main is a resto druid and there’s just not enough healers around for me to raid on my hunter
. ), in fact there seems to be less in many cases than on my 77 blues. I’d like to see the draenai buff made on the horde side in some way given how much leniency it seems to give you.