Sibling-Hotness Should Not Be Considered
When Ferocious Inspiration was changed so that it didn’t stack, there was no reason to bring more than one BM hunter to a raid… except for the fact that just about every BM-hunter topped the damage meter by a huge margin. We were doing 4000DPS when other members of our guild weren’t breaking 3000. It was great fun.
Raid Leader: “We have one slot left in our 25-man raid. We can take a second BM hunter or an SV hunter. The BM hunter won’t buff the raid as one Ferocious Inspiration will not stack with another. Or, we can take the SV hunter who will provide a replenishment for our healers and casters. We should take the SV hunter, yes?”
DPS Officer: “The BM hunter will do 4000DPS. The SV hunter might hit 3000DPS. We have a paladin tank and a retribution paladin. Mana is no issue.”
Raid Leader: “Sending an invite the BM hunter…”
And we would raid with two, three, even four BM hunters at a time. Who cared if FI didn’t stack; 16,000DPS is nothing to sneeze at, foshizle!
The problem with the “Great BM Nerf of 2009” was that it was so severe that it made raiding as a BM totally unsupportable. The bonus from FI could not compete with the massive difference in DPS that the SV hunter brought to the fight.
The BM hunter-nerf came, and the conversation changed:
Raid Leader: “We have one slot left in our 25-man raid. We can take a BM hunter or an SV hunter. The BM hunter will buff the entire raid with Ferocious Inspiration. The SV hunter has a replenishment that we don’t need because we have a paladin tank and a ret paladin. Mana is no issue, so we go with the DPS and raid-buffing BM hunter, yes?”
DPS Officer: “The BM hunter got nerf-batted and will top out at 2500DPS. If he can’t keep his pet alive, we’ll lose Ferocious Inspiration and the hunter might hit 1800DPS by himself. The SV hunter and Explosive Shot will do 4000DPS even if he doesn’t bring his pet to the fight, and even more if he’s able to maintain a 30-yard distance from bosses while staying in totem and healz-range.”
Raid Lead: “Sending an invite to the SV hunter…”
So we went from one extreme to the other, and that’s not good for anybody. Before we had to raid as BM, then we had to raid as SV, and if you didn’t have the spec-o-the-day, you might get non-invited to raids because of it. Even we, BigRedKitty, rolled SV so we could do our part in our guild’s raids.
Now 3.0.9. has arrived and we’ve shown that BM-dps is, at a minimum, competitive again. Here’s how we’re hoping the conversation has evolved:
Raid Leader: “We have one slot left in our 25-man raid. We can take a BM-hunter or an SV-hunter. The BM hunter will buff the entire raid’s DPS, the SV hunter will provide a non-needed replenishment. The SV hunter does a little more base-DPS than the BM hunter, but I don’t know if a single person’s single DPS is worth the raid-buff from BM. Which hunter should we take?”
DPS Officer: “It depends on the quality of the player. A BM hunter who can’t control his pet is basically worthless to the raid. A dead-pet doesn’t provide Ferocious Inspiration and the hunter’s DPS goes in the tank. On the other hand, an SV hunter who can’t do the proper shot-rotation, who doesn’t know how to stand at distance to get the bonus-damage while staying in range of totems and healz, or who tunnel-visions on his cooldowns and doesn’t pay attention to the fights and ends up dying from black circles on the ground or standing in the fire, isn’t as valuable as the BM hunter is to the raid.
“Then you have to think about the boss-fights themselves. Fights like Thaddius, where the hunter is constantly in motion and cannot get to range, are probably more BM-friendly. But fights like Sartharian, where the BM-hunter has to pull his pet out of combat to keep him from dying in the fire walls, are probably more SV-friendly.
“A bad SV hunter will not out-DPS a good BM hunter. A bad BM hunter will not help the raid as much as a good SV hunter. Basically, we should choose the hunter based upon his skills with his spec rather than the spec itself.”
Raid Leader: “I’m choosing the BM hunter. His sister is in the guild and her pic is hot.”
DPS Officer: “I’m totally down with that. Let’s boogie.”
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46 Responses to “Sibling-Hotness Should Not Be Considered”
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Raid Leader: “I’m choosing the BM hunter. His sister is in the guild and her pic is hot.”
^THIS. This is what it should boil down to when deciding on what flavor of hunter you want to bring. Bravo BRK. lol
ilol’d
Thanks for the funny during work.
Haha.. excellent reasoning. BM for life!
The conventional wisdom for SV is that right now, trap dancing > sniper training. Assuming you talent for it, in addition to whatever LnL procs you get from serpent sting, you can get another LnL proc every 24 seconds from frost trap. Other than that, your analysis is pretty good. BM can now happily take a DPS spot and not feel like they’re receiving charity.
Spousal hotness is the correct talent to consider.
As an officer of my guild, the conversation is more like:
GM “OK, we have one more spot left, hunter in quest blues, or the full tier 7 rogue?”
Me “Are you serious?”
GM “No, inviting hunter…”
Because even a mediocre hunter is better than highly skilled lesser class.
@euripedes
Actually current wisdom would suggest dropping an Immolation trap, so you can actually do a little damage while proccing Lock n Load.
Also, 24 seconds? Why on earth would you take Resourcefulness?
Lock and Load has a thirty second cooldown last I checked, so getting your procs from trapping or a serpent sting is pretty much and either/or situation. Not EXTRA procs from trap dancing.
Might want to check you own facts before deriding BRK’s analyses as inaccurate.
@gringott
Frost trap is currently outside the 30 second LnL cooldown. Other traps are not.
I don’t know about a BM hunter being better than an SV on thad since the pet doesn’t benifit from the buff. Also as for the SV hunter making sure he doesn’t get tunnel vision, the same can be said about the BM hunter micro managing his pet. Some BM hunters focus on their pets and forget they need to get out of the fire too. If things go they way the future patch notes state, then it will be the MM hunter getting the invites =P.
How is Thaddius more BM friendly? The pet isnt getting the 100% dmg buff that you are
@ Euripedes
I’ve tested it on live, and frost trap does share the 30 second cooldown.
Immolation Trap > Frost Trap
In any case, this is something that is good to see.
Parity between the three trees is an amazing thing, and now that it is based off of skill and breasts, Hunters of all kinds will get into raids.
it’s more like:
Raid Leader: “I’m choosing the BM hunter. His girlfriend might not heal us if we don’t bring him along.”
tehehe.
“But fights like Sartharion, where the BM-hunter has to pull his pet out of combat to keep him from dying in the fire walls, are probably more SV-friendly.”
What.
No really, WHAT.
A dead pet is a dead pet. You still lose DPS when your pet dies, regardless whether it’s 15% of 50%.
Besides I never read about the patch note that made non-BM hunter pets immune to the lava waves.
And lethal damage only comes when you do it with that add which increases fire damage taken. I don’t remember his name since we either do volcano achievement or sartharion+3.
So I really don’t see the point in this paragraph, a SV with IQ > room temperature will manage his pet out of lava waves just like a BM with IQ > room temperature. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any BMs with IQ > room temperature in my guild or on the server.
@ Gringott
With trap mastery you can have 2 LnL procs from one frost trap. I suggest reconsidering your statement.
Since I’m only level 56 (woohoo Plaguelands) atm, I don’t really know if I can say anything constructive, especially considering that trying to get me me to respec away from BM would be pretty much like trying to get blood from a stone. Anway, do you guys think BM is in a good place right now? I mean, in BC it was OP and in early WotLK it was UP, so what about now?
Thanks in advance and sorry for rambling.
And that is exactly why I raided as MM before the nerf, and continued to afterward
. It’s still largely based on skill. Of the four hunters in my guild only one of them will out dps me as survival. Of the other two, one has bad gear, and the other one some how started sucking when WotLK came out. And MM bring’s TSA, whether you like it or not 
. Hehe.
@ Elitist Jerk
I was specced into trap mastery when I tested the frost trap and LnL on live.
Yes, you can get more than one LnL proc off of a frost trap if you are specced into trap mastery, however you can still not proc LnL with it more than every 30 seconds.
The only reason you’re seeing a 2nd proc off the same trap is because your frost trap is lasting longer than the 30 second cooldown.
@gringott I’m fairly certain you’re wrong and will be happy to provide a wws report to prove it after tonight’s raid. Or, you could look at one of the many such reports that were generated testing this on the EJ hunter forums.
@Euripides
I have yet to see a genuine WWS report showing that frost trap does not put lock and load on cooldown. Cut and pasted text is not the same as the report itself.
If you provide such a report, I would gladly admit my error.
“Unfortunately I couldn’t find any BMs with IQ > room temperature in my guild or on the server.”
Time to switch guilds and servers then, Elitist Jerk.
@Gringott I’m no Plato “thank Piety” but….
That’s like answering a question with a question. A formidable tactic. Touche`
So even of frost trap does work. (and proc L&L twice)
Why are you not using immolation trap? Do you not gain X amount of damage from immolation versus 0 from frost?
BUT if your argument was using freezing trap, i could understand that you are not moving in and out of melee range, thus less time running and more time shooting.
@Elitist Jerk
OS is a more SV hunter friendly fight because when I pull my pet out to avoid the fire wall, I’m not lossing nearly the DPS a BM hunter is. Even if I have to move up, I can still pop off an Explosive Shot, which is the lol red pet of the SV rotation, and do moderate damage.
I personaly think they need to either give the SV tree a non replenishment raid buff (ie FI or TSA in the other trees) or give us a slight DPS boost over the other trees since right now we lack any real raid utility.
@Pinnacle
They need to make Expose Weakness a raid wide buff again.
Agreed – I rolled SV in TBC just for EW, I never understood why they changed it.
@SmackHim
The argument was using frost trap to get 2 LnL procs in order to save movement and thus, not lose autoshot DPS.
Personally, I don’t trap dance and still outdamage the trap dancers or other 4k DPS wonders.
@Gringott
450 raidwide AP (with my agility)? Sure, it’s like a Fury of the Five Flights for the entire raid.
@Pinnacle
The point of my argument was that good hunters don’t let their pets die on lava waves, not the DPS loss as a result.
@Kiera
It’s hard to switch servers when you’re already on the best. (They also respecced SV but that’s not an indicator of their IQ being relative to room temperature in one way or another)
@Gringott
Nevermind. The point is lost.
btw, if you guys havent visited TEJ’s blog…do so. knowledge abounds!
me either
i r mouthbreatherrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
BRK, The FI buff is almost a non-issue as well. If you’ve got a properly specced Retribution Paladin in your raid, he’s bringing Sanctified Retribution Aura, which is +3% raid damage to everyone within 30 yards of the Ret Paladin.
So, us holy men are takin yer jerbs. We do Replenishment AND bring the 3% damage buff. That’s in addition to the 3% crit debuff and Blessing of Kings.
You can be jealous now.
You can get a proc off of the frost trap and off of serpent sting. This allows more ES then any other behavior and increases DPS.
I like BRK’s write up but I don’t buy the lack of love for replenishment. If you don’t have 2 mana batteries in a 25 man raid you should take the SV hunter over the BM hunter every time. If you do have the two batteries take what ever player is better.
*Sigh*
*continues to play MM*
@Gringott
If you want to test frost trap being off the CD, it’s really quite simple. Put up serpent sting, wait for a LnL proc, use it, drop frost trap immediately, look at proc and be amazed by how wrong you are.
@Bromber
Why would any SV hunter spec replenishment when there’s inferior classes to do so (SP/ret and soon frost mage)?
I don’t see the point. Even in our 10-mans I don’t spec replenishment because I ain’t no one’s bitch.
First its:
“We were doing 4000DPS when other members of our guild weren’t breaking 3000. It was great fun.”
Then its:
“So we went from one extreme to the other, and that’s not good for anybody. Before we had to raid as BM, then we had to raid as SV, and if you didn’t have the spec-o-the-day, you might get non-invited to raids because of it.”
Makes it sound like you weren’t too worried about it until you couldn’t top the damage meters while using your preferred style = BM
When “spec-o-the-day” was BM, and you were having “great fun”, was it bothering you that SV had less chance to get into a raid?
BRK, that sort of thing means everything
Kinda doubt anyone anywhere ever, RL included, wants you close enough to be their “bitch.” That implies an intimacy I just can’t imagine you able to maintain.
The point of the post … bring the player not the spec may actually become a reality. Nice.
We have big problems with the word “properly”. We know squat about paladins, but we do know these things:
* Our raid’s ret paladin is spec’d in SRA.
* Our raid’s ret paladin was affected by FI during our raid
* We were buffed with FI 108 times in our Archavon fight
* 22 members of our 25-man raid were affected by FI in our Archavon fight
We are throwing a raid-wide FI on everybody, and either we’re pushing the paladin’s SRA out, of he’s doing some other aura/spell/thing.
well, to clarify…you can be affected by a raid buff without it actually factoring into whatever (damage, healing, etc) calculation.
for instance, abominations might and unleashed rage both offer 10% increased attack power, and you can *get* the buff and *see* the buff in the combat log, its just that the game doesnt count them both at the same time. once one wears off the other picks up. so and so forth for all buffs that are considered to be of the same ilk.
Hmm it sounds then that blizz got the combination right. A few days ago I posted that I would be trying out SV spec but to be honest I haven’t found the time. Its in my queue thou. All your raid talk is making me miss the raid environment and the espri de corps of my raiding group. Perhaps I’ll have some time later but most of my off hours are spent scribing my daily blog post.
BTW let me take this moment to thank you BRK. Your daily blog posts are the inspiration and motivation for me to keep up with my deployment blog. I know typically linking to your own blog in comments is in bad form, but since I comment on a semi regular basis I hope you can forgive the excursion.
http://fuzzyporcupinepaws.blogspot.com/
@ Euripedes, Elitist Jerk, Trinsian and anyone else who weighed in on this issue…
I was wrong.
After playing with it a bit tonight on a target dummy, I found that I could get double Lock n Load procs with a frost trap most of the time.
I stand corrected
Frankly I don’t see how hard can it be to set up a matlab simulation of different hunter specs using the same gear, same buffs on the same fight with same conditions and plot the graphs to see the DPS difference.
I could do it in an hour in matlab, so why a company like blizzard with its huge resources can’t balance DPS among hunter specs?
Gringott, you learn one thing today, that’s a good thing.
And ret paladin bring the same buff as BM’s FI, so if you have a ret paladin (who is specced correctly) a BM brings no buff to raid. (No matter which one is up to the buff list, SRA and FI all +3% dmg.)
Just like SV if you got 2-3 another replenishment class.
BRK: Your example with Thaddius is the worst example in the world. This is one of the fight where SV’s to far-far more DMG then BMs. Why? Because the 100-120% +dmg not affects the pet.
So SVs got 85%*120% bonus dmg (personal dmg*buff stack*10), while BMs got 60%*120% bonus dmg.
With this buff a BM hardly can get before SVs
@BRK
What Doom said. You’re getting the FI buff, but if you have Retribution Aura on you, it ain’t doin’ diddly squat for you. THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!
And what I mean by properly specced is that the paladin is specced properly is that he is 0/10/57+4 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxZVf0tbIucMsguAo). That is the framework of a raiding ret paladin build, without question, unequivocably, and irreversibly, and it includes Sanctified Retribution, which is the same buff as Ferocious Inspiration.
Just throwin’ that out there.
*The above is supposed to read “… what I mean by properly specced is that he is 0/10/57+4…”
I was a bit groggy when I first started writing that.
[...] has been going back and forth about the reasoning of bringing a BM vs SV hunter to raids, considering raid buffs brought to the table and personal [...]
@ Josh, etc.
Regarding the ret pallies and “overriding buffs”… Let’s say that your RL is very exacting and plans one of each buff in a raid.. maximum buffage.
Then your ret pally takes a hateful, and goes splat. Ooops. Buffs gone, and no one to pick them up.
In 25-mans, the way the buff system works now, there’s no way you are not going to have some buffs override each other, but as long as you don’t have 6 doing the same thing, that’s not a problem. In 10-mans, you might want to spread them out more.
LMAO!!
I enjoyed your very bias hypothetical dialogue. I know you don’t like not being at the top of the damage meters anymore all the time. I can see your a BM hunter at heart just by reading that. And thats ok, I’m a SV hunter at heart, but you’ve been in the lime light a long time (BM Spec). Why not let us shine for a little while?